'He's great to work with, he'll take care of it'

Whistle
41

Jerry, I’ve got to disagree with you on 2 points:

“I have sometimes wondered how many whistle makers the market has room for. My conclusion is, as many as can produce an acceptable instrument, especially as pertains to wooden whistles. If not an unlimited number, then at least more than are in the market now. A craftsman can only make so many whistles in a month, and it appears to me, there is demand for more whistles than the present stable of makers can produce.”

I think you’re way off here, as the market appears to me saturated right now regarding wooden whistles. The market will certainly bear a constant stream of new makers, since players tend to collect and or be fickle, however it won’t bear a whole lot more whistles over all. I think it is very unlikely that I, even as a trained professional woodwind maker, could expect to go into the business of making high quality wooden whistles full time be able to make any sort of decent living, because I don’t think I could consistently sell 400 plus whistles a year, even though I could certainly do those numbers and then some, from a production stand point.
Most makers do not make whistles as their main source of income, and this is one of the main things that limits their production capacity.

Already we have long time established makers who are stuggling with decreased demand due largely to the huge increase of makers in the market place in recent years. Other established makers are hanging on to their market share by holding the line on prices even though their expenses are constantly rising. Easy enough for a new hobbyist to jump in and knock out some whistles here and there for some extra cash, but this is, more and more I think, going to impact the more experienced and skilled makers.

The other item I’ll disagree on is:

“I don’t see a problem with makers dumping a lot of shoddy work on the public.”

I suppose it’s all in how you define shoddy, but we’ve certainly had our share of total crap whistles foisted here by at least a half dozen makers over the years. I’m not going to name names, but fortunately many of them have come and gone, some still owing folks money. (And yes, I’m talking about whistles here, not flutes.)

I still see quite a few whistles coming out by newer makers that really are quite shoddy in terms of workmanship, at least by my standards, however my standards are admittedly high. Still, there’s some stuff out there that really needs work…

That said there are some wonderful instruments out there made by excellent craftsmen, and I just hope all the hobbyists don’t end up putting them out of business, if you see what I mean. In the end, the market will decide though, for better or worse.


Loren

42

I think I am mostly with Loren on those points. I was recently at the launch of another wooden whistle and couldn’t help thinking who would be going to buy that in sufficient numbers to justify the effort of developing it.

Also, I don’t think there are a lot of makers dumping shoddy work, I do think an awful lot of whistles are markedly mediocre, made by people who don’t play them very well and bought by people who collect them to put on a display stand. I still don’t see them widely catching on with players in Ireland (Sindts have made a steady entry over the years but not many others seem to have much of a foothold).

43

I’ve never heard this. Can you elaborate?

Best wishes,
Jerry

44

I have noticed the waiting time of a few makers more than halving and people cheerily mentioning they got a bunch of whistles soon after ordering. That should be an indicator of sorts that there’s a change in the market.

45

Well, globalization is strong, but not so strong to speak of one whistle market, I´d say.

I think that Asia or South America have quite few local makers, and one could make it there (since many countries have ridiculously high import tax or something like that).

On the other hand, demand in Europe and NA will be probably saturated.

Peter has interestedly pointed out that irish whistle market is quite different. I haven´t been in Ireland for so long - but with so many “high end whistles” around here, in Europe, I was quite surprised that many players played good old Generations. From typical “high end” whistles, I´ve been able to recognise Sindts and Overtons, but they were hardly the majority. I asked some whistle players about that, and they weren´t really aware of other brands of whistles - they were happy with those they owned, so why would they change it?

46

Peter has interestedly pointed out that irish whistle market is quite different. I haven´t been in Ireland for so long - but with so many “high end whistles” around here, in Europe, I was quite surprised that many players played good old Generations. From typical “high end” whistles, I´ve been able to recognise Sindts and Overtons, but they were hardly the majority. I asked some whistle players about that, and they weren´t really aware of other brands of whistles - they were happy with those they owned, so why would they change it?

I wouldn’t say the top players here are unaware of the alternatives, they aren’t. But why fix it if it’s isn’t broken? A lot of the Sindts are in the hands of young players who try to get ahead in competitions, there’s a strong influence there.

47

Aha…Yes, Sindts are favourite - I believe even Paddy Moloney plays them (he´s not really young :slight_smile:).

I agree - why fix it when it´s not broken? Metaphorically, I live this way and I struggle a lot with it, because most people around me are “WOW, SOMETHING NEW” and it annoys the crap out of me :slight_smile:

48

Just a question. Is this thread now on topic, or off?

49

I think the initial topic has run it’s course, we’ll let it drift to see where it goes.

50

Well, I think this is a very interesting discussion. The direction it’s taken is related to the original topic, I would say, and it isn’t a direction we’ve already worked over a lot.

Best wishes,
Jerry

51

I agree, yet I agree it went slightly off topic. Maybe the mods could split it up? This is one of few whistle brand discussion, which hasn´t become “cheapies/high-end” flame.

52

Slightly off topic but yeah I saw Mery Bergin playing in sessions a few evenings last week and she was playing her Sindt. I’ll be ‘bold’ a bit and say that Sindt is the only high end whistle really worth it.

The ‘tweaked’ O’Brien is still my favorite, but I have to admit for louder sessions I still play my Burke alluminium narrow bore, when I feel like playing a ‘louder’ session, which is not often.

53

Slippery slope, that.

54

No, I really can’t because these makers have said things to me in confidence, so it’s not really fair for me to go naming names. Also, I want to be clear that my comment quoted above is general, and not meant specifically towards only the makers of wooden whistles.

That said, some of what I suggest can be seen just by looking closely at what is openly visible in the market place: Waiting lists shorter for a number of makers (as Peter mentioned), makers concentrating more on other instruments (pipes, flutes, etc.) as opposed to whistle production, makers getting out of the business or going into “semi-retirement”, etc.

Also look at pricing: Makers who routinely raised prices fairly often over time have much more been holding back on price increases - And who can argue that the cost of making quality whistles hasn’t increased?


Inside information aside, the evidence is out there, if we look.


Loren

55

Slightly off topic but yeah I saw Mery Bergin playing in sessions a few evenings last week and she was playing her Sindt.

Left the good whistles at home has she?

But foolishness aside, Sindt type whistles (and I say ‘type’ because I am still very pleased with the Humphrey I have that is more or less a member of the same family) pretty much cover all my designer whistle needs although possibly they’re not quite the final word in whistle making yet.

56

John Sindt is a friend and loyal supporter of hers and was present at ED as usual. It’s reasonable to assume that she’d play his whistles during that week even if she had a couple of others she liked as well or better.

57

Yeah, in fairness, when I say the Sindt is the only high end worth it, I mean Sindt and equivalent whistles, in term of playing and price. I really like the Humphrey, too, I think it’s pretty close to the Sindt.

Strangely, there’s no 200-300$ whistle I wish I owned.

58

I’m not convinced it’s because he was around. The Sindt is a bit louder than your typical Generation, and when she plays with other people she might want a bit of extra volume, especially when unplugged.

59

I was, ofcourse, only joking but it seems reasonable to assume it was a bit of all three plus adapting to the expectation of the audience. The whole discussion of what she really plays is silly to begin with but always good for a bit of poking and prodding. At the Willie week Brid Donohue, Geraldine Cotter and Gavin Whelan all played Sindts during the whistle concert this year. And they all played their c nats in tune without half holing, fancy that now :wink:

60

:boggle: