I think the bottom has dropped out of the second hand flute market! Certainly here in the UK anyway.
I have been trying to sell my Terry McGee Pratten in mint condition at a ridiculously low price and absolutely no interest! I notice many other flutes also not selling.
Perhaps this is the way of things for a while.
A
I’ve been watching your flute, can’t believe it didn’t sell. I already have one or I’d have been on it!
Yes I know!
I dont even think the issue is price. Just no market!
It seems crazy when the well known makers have got closed lists or huge waiting times. That may change, and who knows it might even drive down new prices??
A
Don’t forget the fact that THE commercial holiday of the year is drawing near.. I have problems selling my camera and old surround receiver for beer money right now. 
Spose that could be the reason. I will have to wait till Jan/Feb and have another go then.
Spring is often the best time to sell expensive things. 'S why the house market picks up (or used to) in April/May.
I know what you are talking about Ade; I currently have two flutes by well-respected makers for sale on the forum. I put them up last week and only had one person interested, we couldn’t work out a deal but that is for other reasons, one of these flutes is a Martin Doyle flute and I am surprised I haven’t had more interest. I mean these don’t come up for sale second hand that often and usually they are snapped up when they do.
Could be the time of year but I think it is bigger than that.
Yep, if you can wait for the US tax return season(Feb-May) you might do MUCH better.
Hi All
Yes I will wait a while to sell, but I sense the problem is more than just the Christmas period.
A
I’d be interested if I hadn’t JUST bought a lovely McGee Rudall Perfected 6-key. (Thanks David).
I think there are a number of factors at work here: the season, the economy, and maybe a temporary lull in global interest in Irish traditional music. I know several of the touring bands are struggling a bit more these days. Maybe another blockbuster movie or Broadway production will turn it around. (Sad that it should require that, though).
I don’t think many makers (flute makers and other instrument makers) have that long of a waiting list right now. I suspect the ones with long waiting lists just don’t produce that many flutes and don’t really need to or want to. Or some may simply add a few months to years to their wait times simply to give them breathing space. I’ve done this.
My waiting time is now around 2-5 months depending upon what is ordered. Its actually perfect for me as I don’t like people having to wait long times for my instruments yet I like to have enough work in my queue so I can do some financial planning and make sure I have enough work to pay bills coming due in the next few months (sadly this is where most of my dollars earned from flute making end up!).
As for the used market I’m noticing that not much of anything, period is selling on eBay right now. I think that people are simply holding on to what cash they have for survival, assuming they have any. Or it may be that eBay has paled in terms of being a desirable marketplace, given its being swamped with online stores selling too much crap. Its beginning to feel more of like an Amazon or Target -like marketplace to me, and so I’ve become less interested in it. Simply too much crap to wade through to find anything good. Similarly, I am seeing some categories simply nonexistent - people maybe aren’t trying to sell the good stuff there or are maybe waiting for specific markets to heat up again.
What I am noticing right now in my own sales is that my Folk Flute sales slowed down some in late October while orders for my expensive flutes (including keyed flutes) picked up. So today I just mailed off the last of the year’s folk flutes, and have a week’s worth of key making and fitting on my plate. And more in January and February. Such ebbs and flows are common.
For used instruments by contemporary makers, I think there is always a bit of preference to order directly from the maker, rather than pursue a used instrument. That way one is getting the latest in that maker’s acoustical design or skill, not to mention customization. For antiques, the prices are comparable to a new instrument now - but these flutes still occasionally carry some risks being pitch, condition, intonation and the general cans of worminess that these sometimes present. It may also be that the market for these is simply smaller and the economy (not to mention the bad news of the economy) is scaring away buyers for these specifically.
Interesting discussion.
Casey
I was talking about the antique flute market here in the UK with Jem the other day. What we were saying is that it seems that, right now at least, top antiques are going for quite a lot less than (IMO equivalent) new flutes from top makers. This is the opposite than what seems to have been the norm for a number of years now.
This means that it’s now possible to acquire an antique flute for a decent price and have a very good flute indeed quite affordably. So antiques should become relatively more attractive compared with new flutes, on a temporary basis until the market ‘corrects’ itself. But that assumes that there will be a shift from new flutes to buying antiques. In fact, at the moment, the whole market does appear to be quieter, with perhaps a slight shift right now towards new flutes. I think this should reverse, given time.
I have no idea about the market for second hand flutes from current makers, as I’ve never been interested in buying one. As Casey said, if I were buying from a current maker, I’d want to buy direct and I would want it to be made specially for me. But I know that there are decided attractions in being able to get one fairly quickly, without a wait and without the stress of waiting. (Because, makers, trust me, there is a lot of stress for the purchaser in waiting for his/her new flute/new instrument/etc.)
Just like the stock market, any problems/issues also have to be priced in. For instance, flutes needing (or even having previous) crack repairs, re-corking or tenon re-threading, scratches, tarnish, etc. represent additional $ that the buyer has to place into the instrument. Except for a few of the most desirable makers and materials (cocus, sterling silver), there seems not often as much of a premium given just for availability vs. wait list for a customized flute.
I suspect “Rudall”-style flutes are a lot more popular than
the “Pratten”-style ones. It could also be that the market
is saturated; there are loads of simple system flute makers
now and probably some of the buyers don’t stick with it after
some initial enthusiasm and then try to unload them. The McGee
Pratten I tried didn’t measure up to the Hamilton and Watson
ones I’ve played this year.
On the other hand… I’m certainly not a dealer, or all that connected to the ITM world and I personally know of seven, keyed Olwell flutes that have changed hands in the past year, all at prices well over $5K. So it is hard to generalize. I might add that the majority were private sales that were never publicized here, or in the auction houses or eBay.
“I personally know of seven, keyed Olwell flutes that have changed hands in the past year, all at prices well over $5K. So it is hard to generalize. I might add that the majority were private sales that were never publicized here, or in the auction houses or eBay.” Herb.
Yes, I think this is how it always has been. Sought after instruments can often change hands amongst musicians by word of mouth without the need of being advertised.
Secondhand flutes and pipes by modern makers such as Olwell, Murray, Wilkes, Wooff, Williams, Koehler, Quinn, Froment seem to sell very quickly without any noticable drop in price these days when they are put on offer, as experienced musicians know the quality is extremely high. There is indeed less money about, but instruments by the makers mentioned above still command top price.
If Olwell flutes are so wonderful, why would seven of them change hands within a year? That seems incredible to me. I wouldn’t think there were seven people in the entire world who in combination 1. played ITM, 2. gave a hoot about Olwell flutes, 3. thought they were worth $5k, 4. had $5k to spend, and 5. just happened to be in the market for one all within the same relative timeframe.
On top of this, we have to consider that seven owners all decided that these wonderful and expensive flutes for which they had to wait 6-10 years were now expendible. For what? Money? Another flute? Makes no sense to me.
Maybe they realized after the 6 year wait they didn’t sound better at all (or maybe even worse) in spite of getting the flute of their dreams? Also it never stops amazing me how many people with more money than wits there are
Keyed Olwell flutes, especially cocus, play a lot better, and are much rarer, than antique flutes that are commanding high prices. I don’t think it is at all witless for somebody to have bought a set of Jeff Wooff pipes (now worth $15,000-20,000), or in 1920 to have bought a Gibson Lloyd Loar mandolin (now worth $300,000), or for somebody in Cremona to have bought an instrument from Stradivari ($1,000,000). Even a c.1900 Jeffries concertina costs about $10,000 now. Instruments of outstanding quality will always find ready buyers and will always appreciate in value.
A cocus Olwell worth $7,000 on the secondary market is still a bargain when compared to some of the other vintage instruments mentioned. In this case the maker is still alive (as is Jeff Wooff), which lowers the perception of rarity. Cocus wood, however, is becoming increasingly rare.
As for the reason behind the sale of such instruments, people change and their financial situations change. Nobody ever loses when selling such a top-quality instrument. People do buy top-end instruments thinking they will play better on them, and in fact they often do. Granted, sometimes they don’t. But that doesn’t seem to imply a lack of brains. A lack of discipline or intent perhaps.
Certainly not on my part. I have what I consider to be as good a flute as exists. I wouldn’t sell it if I had nothing to eat and nowhere to live. Some things you simply do not part with. I guess it’s possible (though not probable) that owners or buyers of Olwells are collectors rather than players, but if so, they are taking a big risk. The interest in these flutes is relatively recent, and IMO, Olwells will only have value as a musical instrument, not as a valued antique or piece of art. If and when the interest in ITM wanes, antique flutes will still hold value as antiques, but Olwell’s flutes will dramatically lose value. The speculator will, of course, wager that I am wrong or that the value will hold long enough to show a profit on resale. We’ll have to see. Still, I find it remarkable that seven of his flutes changed hands in a single year. I expect that the sellers at best broke even on the sales, but I don’t really know and consider it beyond the point, anyway.