Did I breach etiquette?

Irish Flute
21

Plenty of info on boxwood here if you search. Generally Private messages
should stay private.

I don’t think there is a rule of etiquette that was violated.
I agree that the maker might have shown better business sense.

On the otherhand the maker’s response is honest and civil. Not a jerk.
And I think it’s understandable, for reasons several of us have given.
His suggestion that saying in advance you have already chosen to buy from
another maker seems a good one, to avoid misunderstanding
and the perception of being a bit misled and exploited.
It doesn’t matter whether the perception is warranted. It’s enough that
people sometimes people feel this way and that a number
of us feel its’ understandable.

One might as well operate in a way that doesn’t risk causing this sort of resentment,
whether or not the resentment is warranted, especially when it’s easy to do.
No fact of the matter, no Right or Wrong… Just kindness and
reasonable consideration for how one’s behaviour may be
taken.

I’m always becoming more aware of the unintended effects of my innocent behaviour on
people, often do tacky things without realizing it. Such is life.
I do think it’s a good idea to treat professionals with a lot of awareness
and special consideration, all things being equal. If I use their professional
services or expertise, I try to give them something back. Many are glad
to help for free, but I still find it’s a good idea.

22

Yes, you breached etiquette by not being upfront and considerate in letting the maker/makers know you’ve already someone in mind to make an instrument, before trying to obtain the fruits of their experience as flute makers. No big deal really but some flute makers are maybe stressed out, have problems, things going, whilst others are more laid back. People are different. I can understand that the flute maker felt you were using him. Anyway no big deal, learn from your mistakes, move on :party:

23

I see two things going on here.

  1. Is asking a maker for advice out of order? Strictly speaking, I don’t see why. BUT:

  2. When asked by the maker if you planned to buy a flute from him (it’s a fair enough question after yours) and you want the info that much, it wouldn’t have hurt you to say, “I’m still deciding, so I appreciate your help”, or something along those lines. He might not be fooled, but the diplomacy ought to hold in a normal situation. When asked if you’re planning to buy from someone whose livelihood depends on his craft and you answer with a flat-out admission of no intention to do so, asking free advice (for that’s what you were doing) does put one in an opportunistic light, and I shouldn’t wonder that a maker would feel insulted at that. He’s under no obligation not to.

But, like Steampacket says, learn and move on.

24

Why lie? There may be special situations that warrant lying (the Gestapo asks if I’m hiding Jews, etc)
but not this one. If I’m planning to buy a flute from a particular other maker,
I’m not ‘still deciding.’ If I’m asking for free help from a pro, don’t I at least owe him honesty?
Best to avoid this sort of situation in the first place. Again the maker’s
suggestion makes sense. Ounce of prevention…

25

I don’t know about “owe”. Myself, I’d rather be honest. That’s for me.

But you’ll note that I said “if you want the information that much”. If you’re going to ask info out of the blue from someone you have no intention of buying from and they ask and you’re honest about it and get a reaming for it, don’t complain, then. It’s a potential part of the interchange.

As it happens, emmdee never told us if he had decided on anyone. If one hadn’t decided but it definitely wasn’t the maker in question, to say one hadn’t decided yet would not be a lie. Not an act of diplomacy I would prefer, and not the whole truth, but it’s not a lie, for what that’s worth. I hope you’re not suggesting that the sort of manners that keeps things running smoothly and pre-empts indignation and anger has no place in the world. But, nor am I avocating that one approach the world like a sociopath. Now if one had already decided on someone and asked the other maker anyway, I see a problem whether one is honest or not. Is there a trust issue with the chosen maker, then? I think it’s a good question.

26

Emdee: ‘He then asked me if I was planning on buying a flute from him. I told him no, that I had a specific maker in mind and explained that I had asked several makers because I respected makers’ opinions, but that I wasn’t planning to buy a flute from him and I appreciated him taking the time to email me back.’

Nano: ‘When asked by the maker if you planned to buy a flute from him (it’s a fair enough question after yours) and you want the info that much, it wouldn’t have hurt you to say, “I’m still deciding, so I appreciate your help”, or something along those lines.’

‘As it happens, emmdee never told us if he had decided on anyone. If one hadn’t decided but it definitely wasn’t the maker in question, to say one hadn’t decided yet would not be a lie.’

OK, so the idea is this: the maker asks, are you planning to buy a flute from me. The truth is that we’re not.

We answer,

‘I’m still deciding…’ And, you’re saying, that isn’t a lie because, while we AREN’T planning to buy a flute from him, and we have another specific maker in mind, maybe we haven’t finally decided on that specific other maker. Of course he
will take us to mean we’re still deciding whether to buy a flute from HIM, which is what we intend him to think, and of course that’s false, but , hey, we’re not, like, lying.

Well, I think that’s a lie and if it isn’t a lie, it’s as bad or worse. I really dislike the more slippery forms of deception (‘it’s obviously misleading but it’s technically not a lie). This is the path that leads to ‘It all depends on what the meaning of is is…’ We really tend morally to reap what we sow, in my experience. Why get into this sort of situation to find out about boxwood? Much better to avoid this.

Yes, I do think we owe pros honesty whose free help we seek. Being upfront in the first place is much
better than this.

27

Why have I not heard you, MD, make any mea culpa yet? I think, as do most here, you screwed up. To blanket survey makers whom you have zero intention of doing business with is just plain wrong, UNLESS YOU TELL THEM UP FRONT, which you did not. Asking one or two makers whom you thought you might work with seems fine, appropriate. What you did was not appropriate and if I were a maker, I’d be annoyed. So just 'fess up, admit you made a mistake and cost some makers valuable time for no good reason, and move on.

28

Nonsense. An instrument maker that is not interested enough about his materials to voice an opinion on them is not one I would want making my instrument. Patrick Olwell and I have spent hours, days, weeks, DECADES!!! talking about boxwood. When I went down to pick up my flute a few weeks ago, we spent almost all of the time talking about… WOOD. My guess is that he has learned a lot talking to people, and has also done quite a bit of listening, learning and enjoying life. During my time as a pipemaker, I would regularly spend a hours on the phone with people I did not know, talking about pipes, wood, reeds, movies, kids, corndogs. If they bought an instrument, great, if not, oh, well. Why do you all think that every move we make must equate to “TIME IS MONEY”??? Money is not life. If I wanted to talk about music at a session, and the fiddler wouldn’t talk to me unless I paid him, I would be gobsmacked. This flute maker was asked a question that had nothing to do with buying an instrument, only with the suitability of a particular wood. He answered it. Then he somehow anticipated selling his wares on the basis of answering a question. And when he did not sell an instrument, he was disappointed? Aw.

29

I still don’t see the great “cosmic” prompt for your question.
You simply got a response that you weren’t expecting.
Are you a control freak? Then, why does the unpredictable response niggle you?
He was just expressing his view, wasn’t he?
He’s not your daddy and you’re not 6.

30

<<Patrick Olwell and I have spent hours, days, weeks, DECADES!!! talking about boxwood. When I went down to pick up my flute a few weeks ago, we spent almost all of the time talking about… WOOD. >.

Thats the point we are making! you discussed a business deal with a business man. were you to have spent all those decades talking about wood with patrick then bought a flute of another guy, would that have been ok to you? Did Patrick give all that time and knowledge for free? or did you pay for it? If after all that chat youd said thanks pat but Ive decided to buys xxxxxxx flute not yours, how happy would he have felt do you think? used?

When I buy a hand made instrument from a maker, we discuss all the issues I can think of and then some… but thats part of the deal IMO. were they to say, go research yourself and stop bugging me with more questions, then I would rapidly go elsewhere! were I to ask all these questions and then say thanks Im off to buy from somewhere else Id expect to be told , in no uncertain terms, where to get off! the fact is the guys were generous enough with their time to answer your questions, the others probably assumed that you were enquiring about buying one of their flutes!

31

Strictly speaking, I didn’t ask for advice. I asked for opinion. Specifically informed opinion. Everybody has one, as is clear from the many of use who enjoy these forums and discussions.

Boiled down, I got 4 responses. With the guys who didn’t respond, I have no problem. Either they are too busy, or they think the question’s not worthy of their time, or whatever. 3 of the 4 respondents gave me a quick opinion (Maurice Reviol, as well as Terry and Gilles), which probably took all of 5 minutes to type. One gave his opinion and then went on to express dissatisfaction about giving up his valuable time to a non-customer. He was of the opinion that I acted wrongly. I wasn’t, but it did make me think sufficiently to initiate this thread. Some people think I was very wrong, some people think it was a little wrong, some people think it wasn’t wrong at all. A p.m. response said somebody else had a similar experience of grouchiness from the same guy.

Do I think what I did was out of order? No. Would I do it again? No. I’d approach it with a lot more thought. On balance, I made a mistake of being too general. Mea culpa? Not quite. Small fault on both sides, and nobody died over it. There’s naught as queer as folk.

Shall we end it here?
m.d.

32

I’ll come out in the open and mention that I am the “offending” flute maker. Its time to tell my side of the story. Here is all the correspondence - not just the last snippet:

“Subject: flute inquiry
Dear Casey
I hope I can trouble you for an opinion about boxwood. All other things being equal (embouchure cut, bore size, hole size), do you think boxwood is a material you’d recommend for a keyed flute, as opposed to blackwood? I ask because I’m looking for a new flute and boxwood appeals to me aesthetically more than blackwood, but obviously the sound is more important than the look when all’s said and done.
Thanks for your time
m.d.”

I responded:
“Hi Mark,
Boxwood is great and makes for a fine keyed flute. Its only drawback is a tendency to warpage. I take care of this by sizing the wood by microwaving it while in the turning stage. It becomes just as stable as blackwood then.
Tonally, boxwood has a certain lovely liveliness that recommends it. Volume is close to blackwood, but maybe just a tad bit less (the trade-off for the liveliness).
I’ve made a number of keyed flutes in boxwood and all have performed well.
Casey”

He wrote back:
“Thanks ever so much, Casey. FWIW, I’ve been a fan of boxwood since I Played a boxwood Wilkes owned by a friend of mine. Obviously, Chris could make a flute out of MDF, but still… It’s nice to gauge opinions from makers, as opposed to people who only play 'em.
Best of luck
m.d.”

I then added as an afterthought:
“So are you interested in getting a boxwood flute from me or from another maker? I like to know since it takes a while to get the wood all ready for these.
Casey”

To which he responded:
“Ah, without wishing to be rude, I asked the same question to about 20 makers just to see what makers thought of boxwood. I’ve actually been on Patrick Olwell’s list since 2006; when my turn comes I might consider a boxwood 6 keyed over a blackwood.
Hope that doesn’t suck but, frankly, I think many of the opinions you might find online from players are not necessarily all that well informed and makers know their stuff.
I appreciate your help.
m.d.”

So I threw in a line of gentle suggestion:
“It would be more appropriate to let the makers know this beforehand. We have to earn a living after all and don’t earn anything by shelling out free advice.
Casey”

Note that in the first email he used the subject “Flute Inquiry” and states that “I’m looking for a new flute”. Usually this means that someone is browsing my website and considering buying one of my flutes. This still gives me a thrill after 30 years of flute making. I enjoy answering such queries even though I am sometimes swamped by emails and would rather be making the instruments themselves or playing music instead of sitting in front of my computer. Much of the time such inquiries result in an order of a flute for me or another maker. So I answer them.

Then it was revealed that the purpose of his inquiry was to ask questions about a flute that he already had on order with Patrick Olwell and that several makers were contacted. I responded tersely at the end with a suggestion of etiquette on behalf of all of us flute makers - doing my part to “educate the masses”. Had I been really bent out of shape by this he would have gotten an earful! C&F has done that for me instead and the varied responses here are interesting.

I don’t mind answering queries from potential flute clients or people simply searching for information that may some day lead to a flute order. However, I am very uncomfortable when placed in the situation of sticking my nose into another flute maker’s business and interfering with that maker’s already ongoing transaction! Its none of my business. Unfortunately this was the case here.

He should just go with Patrick Olwell’s opinions about the flute he has on order with him and not ask other makers to weigh in. If Patrick has something to say about which flutes, wood etc. one can be 100% certain that it is true fact. He’s one of the top makers on the planet, for gosh sakes! Why would anyone need a second opinion?

The time spent answering emails is something to consider. Say each of the 20 flute makers spent an average 10 minutes each reading, considering it and replying to this inquiry. In total cumulative flute making time, this amounts to 200 minutes, about the amount of time it takes me to produce one of my Folk Flutes at $375, assuming I don’t run into any wood defects. Say we get 10 such exchanges a month (including the questions from people who seem to enjoy asking questions as a hobby or maybe its their only social outlet (sometimes I’ll get 20 or more emails just from one person) but who never get around to ordering something). That’s 120 such inquiries a year and equivalent to 120 flutes that never got made.

And people wonder why our waiting times are so long?

Casey

33

Very reasonable. The OP knew he had breached etiquette. Otherwise, there would be no thread. No biggie, just a gentle lesson for all of us enthusiasts.

34

As a thread about etiquette breaching, there is an irony in MD omitting the actual exchange (and the number of them), and then praising by name those he deemed helpful. Given the exchange with Casey, I’ve no doubt those other makers also reasonably assumed that they were helping at least a potential customer. In deciding makers, we’ve probably all emailed several makers we ultimately did not choose with questions. But if you know, beyond doubt, you definitely do not want a particular maker’s flute, why would their opinion on wood choices, or anything else, matter in the first place? Reading through the exchanges, there was an early implied interest in Casey’s flutes in order to get information from him. Really not cool. Rather than being crabby and petty, as portrayed, I think Casey was quite helpful in his initial responses, and his tactful question and response in the later return was more than appropriate.

35

:thumbsup:

36

Interesting, after having placed an order with a very experienced and renowned flutemaker there was still a need to solicit the opinons of other craftsmen/women regarding the true nature of boxwood? Prehaps MD didn’t, or doesn’t realise Pat’s standing in the flute community?. Casey has behaved like a gentleman whilst MD has also breached etiquette by trying to cast Casey in an unfavourable light. Please cease breaching etiquette in such a brazen manner MD, I fear I’ll have to retire to my chambers and partake of my smelling salts :wink:

37

deleted

38

BFD.

39

:laughing:

Boxwood sucks anyway. Go with ABW or cocus.

40

Cocus.
I have an antique set of Cocus GHB, Hendersons, my pride and joy , and they are the sweetest set of pipes ever! Well apart from PM Angus MacDonald’s which are awesome! Now if I could just play them like the master himself , Id be a very happy man :slight_smile: