Delrin

Does anyone know of any scientific studies on the potential health hazards associated with Delrin polymer, or have any first hand information? I have searched the C&F site without finding much on the subject. I know Delrin is widely used for flutes but other plastics were widely used for food containers, baby bottles, water carriers before they were discovered to have BPAs, pthalates and other nasties in them. I guess acceptance is not always synonymous with safety.

I am attracted to Delrin for its practicality. Over the years I’ve tried to de-plasticize my life and am a tad leery about buying a Delrin flute simply because I won’t need to lie awake night wondering if it’s going to crack in the dry climate I live in.

Thanks
Michael

Not particularly scientific, but I know if you get hit over the head with a delrin flute it will likely be hazardous to your health.

Here’s the official info: http://www.sdplastics.com/pdf/MSDS_Delrin_570.pdf

I have worked with delrin on and off for many years with no, twitch!, concerns. :smiley: It is probably more dangerous in its raw state while being formulated or when heated in manufacturing processes - like turning and boring flute bodies. But in its finished state I have no evidence of it being a hazard. But who knows for sure.

Allergies to various exotic woods that are used for making flutes is more of a concern to me than any hazard from a finished delrin flute. And not all polymer flutes are made of delrin. All black plastic is not necessarily delrin.

Feadoggie

I think it is considered food grade. If you heat it up to it’s melting point, it is potentially cancer causing… Just keep it way for open flame, as it burns real easy!

Here is an article on the grades of Delrin including food grades. I wonder what grade is being used by the flutemakers who use it.
http://www.dupont.com/products-and-services/plastics-polymers-resins/thermoplastics/Articles/grades-of-delrin.html

I would feel cautious about anything with potentially transportable formaldehydes if one was chemically sensitive, which I am. But then I used a lot of plywood when I built my house in the 90s. Do your due diligence.

I do react badly to perfumes, tobacco smoke, musk, patouli oil, cleaning solvents, soaps, diesel exhaust, pot smoke, etc. I have to be somewhat careful out there. Plastic fumes from the heat generated by machining are really intolerable which is one reason why I won’t ever turn Delrin, and abandoned any idea of using other plastics such as cast acrylic resin. My tools are sharp enough for wood but need to be supersharp to turn Delrin and Acrylic. I’m too lazy and unwilling to keep them that sharp! Otherwise heat is generated and within seconds my workshop smells like the chemical factories of New Jersey back in the 70s (I remember this from hitchhiking from DC to the George Washington Bridge once in 1977).

I use a low viscosity superglue out in the workshop and vent it well when using epoxies (I glue my rings on with this) and occasionally use a polyurethane sealer, again with adequate ventilation. These don’t seem to affect me the way that list of other substances does.

I do turn the occasional ring for bagpipes from the cast GPS polyesters sold as “alternative ivory”. I turned a flute out of it once. One day the middle joint spontaneously broke into two pieces. It was probably just a bad piece. Otherwise its a fairly benign material to work especially if one can keep it cool and vacuum the chips away while machining. Rod Cameron has also made flutes out of it and none of these have spontaneously self destructed. I might have dropped the piece or it could have been cracked in transport. I used to buy it in about 20kg quantities and it was always mailed just wrapped up in paper and tied with string - all the way from Great Britain.

In terms of an end product such as a flute, I would request that it be made in a food grade delrin if possible and that is what the flute makers should be using hopefully. Most likely the chemicals in it are stable in any grade. However, there may be lingering dusts and volatiles resulting from the machining. Thus you might simply want to wash the flute in warm water or wipe it down with a mild solvent such as alcohol before use, so that you don’t ingest any of these dusts as a precaution. With wooden flutes the final step before final assembly is to oil the flute, then wipe off all of the oil which transports any machining dust away, or at least renders them less mobile. Since the Delrin flutes don’t need any oiling or finish, they may still have such particulate. I have seen this in Susato whistles.

I have had to narrow my wood choices down to the ones least toxic to me as well. Blackwood, Boxwood and Mopane are pretty benign. Other rosewoods especially Cocobolo, Bocote, Cocus, and others give me rashes. I can’t use them.

I am not totally anti-plastic. I bought C and D Susato whistles recently. Again, laziness is probably the primary reason why I don’t make flutes from it.

Speaking of plastic flutes, today I am working on a prototype for an Irish Bass Flute in D, one octave below our normal Irish flutes. I am simply testing some concepts and demonstrating the results to Grey Larsen when he comes over tomorrow to have me make a few minor adjustments to the tuning on his alto flute. In the image below, the flute on the top is one of my early D flutes (circa 1986) for scale. Next is the plastic plumbing that will be used as the body of this instrument. Wood will be added for embouchure height, as well as something of a tapered bore to the body. I’ll report back and maybe even have a video of us trying to play this thing (which will require 3 people).

Finally (from the images on the LOC website) a bass flute by Wigley and McGregor circa 1815 at the Dayton Miller Collection, #1239, printed to actual size. The view is about a meter wide and the sounding length of that flute is around 1100mm. I took measurements of this one when I was there recently. Peter Noy sells one very similar based on a flute by Delusse, circa 1750, pitched at A-415, for $4900. I am looking at some of the contrabass flutes and subcontrabass flutes and thinking of the usefulness of a simple system fingered version of these. It could be fun…

http://www.caseyburnsflutes.com/ibs.jpg

Casey

[ Oversized photo changed to link. -Mod ]

Michael, its probably the propensity for some wood flutes to crack in dry climates that might keep you up at night, not Delrin as you mentioned accidentally in your original post.

Delrin holds up quite well. They probably used it on the Curiosity Rover and Mars has about the driest climate out there!

Wood holds up well, especially if its been sealed with a polyurethane sealer. Or simply kept oiled and humidified.

There are a bunch of sites on chemical sensitivities on the web and none of them list anything specifically about Delrin. Also many of these sites are fraught with belief systems and not hard science and are repeating themselves over and over, generating much hype. Don Prothero at skepticblog.org has a great article up on vaccines and autism that picks these types of things apart. He links the rise in autism to the trajectory of Jenny McCarthy’s career. Don is also one of the world’s leading paleontologists and critical thinkers, and is a good friend of mine. He actually mentions me in one of his books (Greenhouse of the Dinosaurs) and calls me the “Pied Piper of the Tide Flats”, which is the title of one of the chapters. I’ve been a co-author on some of his research papers and helped him out in the field. This is what I do for fun when I am not flute making.

The MSDS sheets might be a good place to start and a toxicology library or a search in specific scientific journals or contacting specific researchers regarding the health effects of plastics might help pin down some actual facts. I doubt if you will find much of anything factual online without searching extensively and critically. Beware of the Internet. There is also a chance that this hasn’t ever been studied, given the prevailing current wisdom that it is considered food safe.

Casey

Thanks, Casey, for a most comprehensive reply to my query.
It looks as though no one really knows if Delrin or, for that matter, other plastics are completely safe. Since some health problems, i.e. cancer, can take a long time to develop one may never know for certain. When a Delrin flute player drops dead the last thing the ME will think about is the flute.

The safest route is to stick with wood, and to be vareful about which one.
Michael

Delrin isn’t going to crack. I have GHB practice chanters made from the stuff (not to mention real chanters and even a set of pipes). It’s very durable. I keep on practice chanter in my car, winter and summer. I’ve dropped it on the street. Amazing stuff. Unlike flutes, we pipers actually stick the end of the practice chanter into our mouths. A lot of pipers say a lot of bad things about delrin (especially for drones) but I’ve never heard a whisper about negative health effects from chewing on it.



Think you’re both misreading Michael’s intent here… which, to me, comes across as ‘don’t want to go Delrin (instead of wood) just for its toughness’!

and am a tad leery about buying a Delrin flute simply because I won’t need to lie awake night wondering if it’s going to crack in the dry climate I live in.

This would make more sense to me if he meant wood.

The safest route is to stick with wood, and to be careful about which one.

Its nice to win the wood vs. delrin debate once in a while…

Cheers!
Casey

I once had a colleague who had been the ‘environment manager’ (or some such title) for a building supplies company. The job included researching the sort of stuff that Casey reviews above and also how ‘green’ the source materials were. He said that there was one retail customer who kept coming back with concerns. In the end they were forced to respond:

"Madam, we have to make door frames out of something - have you considered whether you really need one ? "

I’ve occasionally had to say things like that, David. Good one!