This isn’t about respect, in this specific conversation regarding sites like WhistleThis, it’s about civility and providing a useful and non-threatening resource for newer players. This requires a commitment by the mentors to respect each other, and to contribute constructively to those using the site to learn, even if they sometimes arrive completely misguided and need to gently be steered in a new direction. It also helps to have a clear distinction between those who are there to teach, and those who are there to learn, and if someone can’t deal with that, then they have plenty of other places on the internet to go to find an arrangement more to their liking.
As I said: Respect could have been earned.
It was the mentor system itself that was the mistake. Once you feel the need to elevate one from the group to be the shining example, you better make sure the example does indeed shine. You’re asking for dissenters once it doesn’t.
The original situation where everybody freely commented on everybody else was a much better position. One where everybody was on an equal footing, equally entitled to their own bit of respect for contributing.
On the rare occasions when I’ve had to toss someone, I’ve always been thanked by the rest of the session players. We even have a protocol amongst the regular players on how to deal with such situations. I’m glad this doesn’t happen very often as I hate dealing with this kind of thing, but it goes with the host role. It’s our party and nobody gets to wreck it. Anyone here on the board who’s been to the Ould Sod session here in San Diego knows we’re very nice people, with some great players and we take very good care of visitors. But if someone shows up with an attitude of entitlement and combines that with a lack of sensitivity towards the music or the other players and I’ll gladly pull them aside, explain the specific issue trying to be as diplomatic as possible, and what happens next depends on their response.
Only have had to do it maybe 5 times in 10+ years, but its part of why we’ve been successful. You go to the Ould Sod session on Tuesday night, the music will generally be good and the people will be nice to each other.
Regarding Mr. Gumby’s “The original situation where everybody freely commented on everybody else was a much better position. One where everybody was on an equal footing, equally entitled to their own bit of respect for contributing.” I guess it all depends on what one is trying to accomplish on the site. A lot of new players don’t have the distinctions required to even know what to listen for, and you end up with a fair amount of “I’ve been playing for 3 weeks, here’s my version of XXX what do you think” followed by someone who’s been playing for 5 weeks responding with “Sounds great, keep up the good work…” when really, what needed to be said was “there are some things you might want to work on…” followed by some specific advice. I don’t think you can “earn” respect unless the members of the board have the distinctions to know what should be respected, and that is quite often not the case on a board targeted towards newer players. You have to have mentors who, more importantly than necessarily being virtuoso players (that’s a whole other topic), can clearly communicate the required distinctions and have a commitment to contribution, and a willingness on the part of those who go there to learn to be contributed to by the mentors. Otherwise, what’s the point?
Now, if you have a board where everyone is more experienced and have the distinctions to know what’s good and what isn’t and you want lively debate, and the site isn’t specifically meant as a learning resource for newer players, there’s no need for mentors or a hierarchical structure. I think WhistleThis never really could make up its mind what it was meant to be for so there was conflict.
You have to have mentors who, more importantly than necessarily being virtuoso players (that’s a whole other topic), can clearly communicate the required distinctions and have a commitment to contribution, and a willingness on the part of those who go there to learn to be contributed to by the mentors.
The bone of contention however was of course that it was questioned if that requirement was in place. It was not a stylistic issue at all. As I recall it , ‘How can you explain proper rhythm and phrasing if you don’t posses it yourself’ was essentially the question asked. And that was the disrespect you refer to isn’t it?
It was also for that reason that the option of posting comment to the mentors’ posts was axed. At your request if I recall correctly. Which meant that discussion about mentor contributions was out and valid questions couldn’t be asked.
Exactly the reason why the site would have been better off without a formal mentorship.
I agree the lack of vision and consistency were the end of WhistleThis.
It’s all water under the bridge now, the site is dead and is best left to disappear.
The question of what is or is not disrespect always interests me, and I just want to chime in for a bit and then I’ll bow out as I really have nothing else to contribute to this conversation.
Not having further context to go by, to me the italicised question above is not necessarily disrespectful. If it’s true that the person being asked didn’t have proper rhythm and phrasing, it might hurt to face it, but it’s a valid question if it’s based on the truth. More to the point, it maintains and invites conversation, couched as it is in neutral terms. Now, if the question was more posed like, “How on earth do you even presume to explain [whatever] when you suck at it yourself? You fraud.” - to me, that contains the elements of disrespect: belittling language, and an attack.
Of course, continually pointing out others’ real or imagined inconsistencies is not a recommendable social habit; there is a point where if that’s all one does, there’s nothing helpful afoot and basic human-to-human disrespect, and a private personality war, is probably what’s really going on. It’s not always simple.
Then there’s the old fossilised idea that any challenge - even polite - to authority equals disrespect. I don’t agree with that, because an innocent question is in good faith, isn’t it? But I do think that one should pick one’s battles when one can. That’s more about strategy; causing an authority (valid or otherwise) chagrin in front of others might prove more self-defeating than one might have thought.
Okey-dokey, done with the rambling side-track musings. And now back to your regularly scheduled program. 
I don’t think the personalities involved were much of a help in resolving the situation. The question asked was a valid one though and I think a mentor who has as Michael describes can clearly communicate the required distinctions and have a commitment to contribution, would not have gone into a huff but could have easily laid out why he approached, as he perceived it, ‘the stylistic issues’ as he did and defended his position. I don’t think that happened though.
But, as I said, bygones..
Like your style Eskin! Really appreciate your thoughts - will check back and let you know how we’re getting on!
Perceptions of disrespect can be tricky when in written form on a forum. Too many assumptions are in the mix. The “disrespected person” A) is assuming that he/she has earned a level of respect according to their own perceived level of skill/accomplishment, and B) chooses to take offense to someone challenging that. These are things that the “offender” can’t really control. A person can choose to candy coat everything he or she says and be seen by the community as respectful, but risk that their comments will never teach anyone due to lack of clarity, or they can speak frankly (which doesn’t mean disrespectfully) and get the message across. The other person can choose to be honest enough with self to either take the comment and put it to use or shrug it off as incorrect. Taking offense is a choice, and not a very honorable one IMO.
It also helps to have a clear distinction between those who are there to teach, and those who are there to learn, and if someone can’t deal with that, then they have plenty of other places on the internet to go to find an arrangement more to their liking.
Of all the websites and youtube tutorial videos that are in cyberspace, I’ve not yet seen one that I would want to take on as my “teacher”. As I said before, the ones who typically are inclined to put up websites and teach everyone else are not, in my experience, the ones who have any business doing so. Once you elevate yourself to the role of “teacher” how do you keep your ego in check to make sure you are still teachable yourself? Might be better to toss the whole idea out the window and focus your time on bettering your own playing rather than building a website. Speaking of such, I’m going to get off the computer now and go practice.
The idea of playing and uploading a tune so everyone can hear is fun and good practice. Whatever the ability it gives people something to go for. A few ego’s might be bruised but that’s life. All the talk about Mentors and if a tune is played well or not doesn’t really matter.
Any musician will naturally pursue their own progression and if keen enough they will find a decent teacher and listen to good players. If not so keen they will give up.
Dave.
Just reading all this for the first time… Maybe most users of the site were blissfully unaware of all this disrespect. I certainly was. I don’t recall seeing any a$$holes or jerks on the forums there, either.
I thought the site was a neat concept and I had no objection to anybody being able to comment on anybody else’s playing. Yes in some cases the blind were attempting to lead the blind, but that’s inherent in the whole Web 2.0 trend, isn’t it?
My own experience was that sometimes people who IMO had no idea of what they were talking about would comment on my submissions, barking up the wrong tree entirely, but since I didn’t have mentor status it was no great insult to my ego. You could always reply, pointing out why you thought they were wrong. And sometimes people who weren’t very good players themselves would point out flaws and they would be absolutely right.
Maybe the mentor status was the spanner in the works, I don’t know. Especially if the mentors consider themselves above criticism. I think if you want to put up clips for the whole world to hear, you have to be prepared to take criticism, valid or not.
Especially if the mentors consider themselves above criticism. I think if you want to put up clips for the whole world to hear, you have to be prepared to take criticism, valid or not.
It should probably, for clarity’s sake, be stressed it was only one of the mentors who refused to take comment and to this day seems to feel ‘disrespected’ about the bit he did get.
OK, I can’t handle any more of this passive-aggressiveness… (mine as well as Peter’s)
To those watching, first, I do want to state that I have great respect both for Peter’s playing and his contribution to the whole of traditional Irish music both in his recordings, beautiful photography, and historical archiving.
Peter, you had rhythmic and style issues with clips I posted. You essentially said I didn’t have the first clue how to play this music. Other fine players I also respect didn’t share your overt dismissal of my clips. But after that, you essentially took over as the final judge and jury of all playing with no tolerance of playing that met your specific narrow requirements. Because I wouldn’t roll over and accept your style as the one and only gospel, you treated me dismissively and made me out as some sort of charlatan doing a massive disservice to new players by daring to post some tune clips that heaven forbid, they might learn something from. I’m guessing that to this day, you still have that same opinion. I respected your playing, but wouldn’t choose your style for my own, but you could not just let that be.
It seems that you have a dogmatic belief, that the legitimate way to learn this music is to learn directly from source. The rest of us should not be allowed to teach because we aren’t source. We didn’t have the fortune to be born and raised in Ireland and learn at the master’s knee. We can come to Willie Clancy week for instruction, go to workshops with visiting masters and tionols, but in the end, we still have no “right” to teach because we’re not source.
I’m sorry. I and many others don’t share that opinion if that’s really what you think. Dealing with a local scene and nurturing local players in someplace as far from Ireland as San Diego is very different from living in the heart of it.
OK, I can’t handle any more of this passive-aggressiveness…
Peter, you had rhythmic and style issues with clips I posted. You essentially said I didn’t have the first clue how to play this music. Other fine players I also respect didn’t share your overt dismissal of my clips. But after that, you essentially took over as the final judge and jury of all playing with no tolerance of playing that met your specific narrow requirements. Because I wouldn’t roll over and accept your style as the one and only gospel, you treated me dismissively and made me out as some sort of charlatan doing a massive disservice to new players by daring to post some tune clips that heaven forbid, they might learn something from. I’m guessing that to this day, you still have that same opinion. I respected your playing, but wouldn’t choose your style for my own, but you just couldn’t just let that be.
Sorry you feel that way about it Michael.
First of all: this discussion, which at this point is manhandling a very dead horse, had not happened if you hadn’t revived it by suggesting anybody on WhistleThis disagreeing with you were ‘assholes’ (which let’s face it, is exactly what you implied). So don’t give me the spiel about the passive agressive thing. If you make the move, don’t complain when you get the response.
You also said here that the mentors should put forward their assessment so others could learn. Which was done, in detail. Phrasing and rhythm, the whole statement-reply structure, it’s all at the very foundation of good playing of Irish music. It is not a ‘narrow approach’ or a stylistic issue when they’re lacking. It’s a competence issue of central importance. Without it, you have nothing.
if you don’t take my word for it read Pat Mitchell’s Rhythm and Structure in Irish Dance Music
You really need to stop editing your posts substantially after they have been replied to. You’ve been at that in previous discussions.
Hey, I can’t help it if you’re reading/responding at the exact same time that I’m writing/revising my new posts…
The italicized question could be neutral or derogatory depending on the context in which it was presented. Folks don’t have to resort to “you suck” kinds of phrases to be insulting.
The thing that strikes me about this argument is the notion that we can apply rigid standards to subjective material. While music certainly has to some semblance of rhythm, phrasing certainly is a matter of preference. And while one person may prefer a particular phrasing of a passage, attributing various versions as ‘better’ or ‘worse’ is purely subjective.
Agreed. Although in this case, we lack the context to know how the question was asked. But perhaps the conversation will evolve to a subject on which we can all agree …perhaps politics or religion. 
Peter, I agree with everything you wrote about the essence of the music. I just don’t appreciate your implying in public forums that because of my particular playing style on some clips posted to a site, I don’t appreciate those values. I do, and I wish you would just accept that and give it a rest.
I thought I’d been using WhistleThs quite a bit for a while, but I don’t remember seeing any of this …
Oh, yes. It was fraught.
All I know is that they have been doing the Sailor’s Wife for more than two years.
That always made me feel bad for the sailor.