Where beginners should look (StevieJ's original post).

Whistle
1

I’m popping this out of the topic that it was first posted in (hope you don’t mind Stephen) because it’s an interesting topic and because I enjoy sparring with StevieJ :wink:

On 2001-11-06 18:11, StevieJ wrote:

Going off at a tangent slightly: I don’t really know how to say this without sounding like a killjoy and/or offending people, but I’m going to say it anyway. Please take it as it is meant, which is with the best interests of beginners at heart.

In my considered opinion, many of the sound clips on this site[ > http://www.verinet.com/~ktcrumb/tunes/index.php3
], and indeed the same could be said of our own clips and snips, are not good references for beginners, or indeed for anybody. Many - not all - of the performances are by people who could barely be said to be beginners themselves.

I’m sorry, but these are just not the performances of Irish music that beginners need to be listening to for learning purposes. The rhythms of Irish music are subtle and need to be learned from established traditional musicians. Just as to learn French or Spanish or Mandarin you have to learn to native speakers.

As fun places for people to post their efforts, such sites are fine. But as learning resources? Avoid them like the plague.

First a note on my skill - I know that I’m a beginner at the Irish mode; I’ve been told so and I have no reason to disbelieve what I’ve been told. However, I am not a beginner at the whistle nor music. This is said simply to establish that I may not know what I’m talking about but I’m going to say it with a great deal of assurance :slight_smile:

Your argument is of course not old: John Ruskin (an old and quite dead architectural critic) once commented that our surroundings dictate our taste… if we live in squaller our designs reflect our squaller. If we live and study beauty, we learn how to build beautiful things.

So, Stevie, I see your point and it does have some ‘considered’ merit, however I do want to disagree to some extent… and here it is: I believe that all you need to know to teach someone is a little bit more on the subject than the other person.

My first flute teacher was a relatively unskilled gradeschool teacher (no offense Tom :wink: that looking back barely knew how to finger it, but he got me going. My next teacher was better. Some of my recent teachers where collegiate instructors and professionals. I learned something from each of them and as my skill increased I realized that I needed people with more skill to teach me. Sometimes I needed to unlearn some habits, but unless you can afford Paddy Maloney (sp?) as a beginning whistle instructor you’re probably going to get someone less than the best.

Secondly, who should we listen to. Only those from Co. Clare? Cork? Kerry? New York? What style/accent is it ok to hear?

Thirdly, I’m not sure that it matters if I have an accent when I play. I speak German with an accent and the folks here seem to enjoy the fact that I’m even trying. So what’s wrong with learning from a non-native speaker. In fact, how many French teachers in the world aren’t French? I don’t play Irish music to impress Irish people (Ok, stop with the easy joke).

To sum up, the postings by folks aren’t necessarily the best Irish music around, but they seem a fine place to start, particulary considering the price of admission. It’s not that difficult to spot the beginners vs. the better players. And sometimes we can learn from others’ mistakes.

Peace,
Erik



[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-11-07 10:55 ]

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You can learn a language from non native speaker but you won’t be able to write poetry in it. This music is the same, you may get the notes but you will have to go to the source to make them speak.
Nobody suggested you should play to impress anybody, you play music to communicate something. However if you don’t have the ‘language’ you end up like those popgroups and rockbands from all corners of the earth who think they are expressing deep emotions through a commonly accepted language while actually, through a lack of a basic knowledge of that (English) language are actually talking complete gibberish.



[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-11-07 12:49 ]

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Erik, you make some good points. When people are first learning something, they have to make do with whatever is available to them.
You mention that when you first started whistle you learned bad habits that then had to be unlearned. I don’t know about you, but I feel frustrated when this happens to me! I would far rather learn something that won’t have to be relearned. As a classically trained musician, it has taken me years to “unlearn” all my training, and start to actually play in an acceptable “Irish” style.
This thread I think will create some interesting dialogue, because it also brings into play the discussion about what is the “correct” or “aceptable” way to play Irish trad. music, and should a whistle player have to play that way. Personally, I prefer to hear and play Irish tunes in a particular style that has been passed down to us by great Irish musicians, but that is my choice. I have friends who think that any old tune can be played any old way. I don’t disagree with them, but I am entitled to my preferences. When it comes to learning, I agree with Stevie - try to learn from the very best sources from the very beginning. It will save time and frustration. In this age where we have access to computer programs or portable cd or tape players that can slow-down recordings, anyone who wants to learn a particular style of music can. If style is not important, then it doesn’t matter where your sources come from.
As the great celtic guitarist and humourist Jim Dewan from Chicago says…
“there’s no accounting for taste”
…and Peter, nicely said.
Sue

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This topic has started up from time to time on C&F, and I confess I’m not sure why. What most of us appear to be interested in is Folk Music, which automatically allows for a very wide range of interpretation and technique. Concepts such as “right” and “wrong” really don’t apply, and aren’t useful in the discussion. The most useful concept I find is the measure of how close the player is coming to his or her ideal of how the music should sound – whatever that ideal might be. The judgement of others might govern the size of one’s audience, but otherwise isn’t part of the equation – unless maximizing audience size is one’s ideal. ( How dismal that would be … )

If a playing technique isn’t interfering with a player’s own approach to the music, then who’s to say it’s wrong? I play the pennywhistle with my left hand on the lower three holes, like Mary Bergin does. Would that interfere with my learning to play a Boehm-pattern flute? Probably not, because I’d be learning so much else that’s new that switching hands wouldn’t be a major problem. Does it interfere with my fifing? Not at all. I’ve played the fife left-handed for over ten years now; that’s why I play the pennywhistle left-hand down.

When I took up the pennywhistle, I had to learn that where one does turns and inverted turns on the fife, rolls are played on the pennywhistle instead; instead of trills, now cuts and whatnot. I didn’t make a mistake in learning to play the fife; I just had new things to learn when I started whistling.

So far as interpretation goes, most of us are very familiar with the recent styles in Celtic music, but I have a CD at home which is a copy of recordings made in Ireland in the 20s and 30s. I expect it is much closer to the historical fact of Irish music than most of what is done today. Ornamentation is sparing and there usually aren’t a great many instruments involved – it’s a “small” sound, not a “big” one, and therefore perhaps more human in its scope. Phrasing is much “flatter,” rather more like what one gets by playing the notes straight off the sheet music. The music made by my favorite modern groups can be surpassingly beautiful, but that does not alter the fact that the old way has its charms. Perhaps the player wishes to go in completely non-traditional directions instead, as the subject of a recent thread, Eamonn Dillon, seems to have done.

I think it’s very difficult to justify an attempt to specify which sources are appropriate for beginning whistlers because “what’s appropriate” will vary so much depending upon the taste of the player, native talent, and the direction in which they desire to go with their music. Will there be blind alleys and habits to unlearn as one grows and tastes change? Undoubtedly, it can’t be avoided. That’s part of life and folk music is an expression of life.

Just thinking out loud.

5

I learnt to play didjeridoo from an Austrian who had never been to Australia let alone met an Aborigine and the best Irish whistle player could be Japanese for all I know.Irish is but one spoke in the Celtic music wheel and I will learn from anyone with more knowledge than myself.To make an impression with ones talent is no sin…some of my favourite players are unabashed show offs. Peace,Mike :slight_smile:

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I’ve been listening to recordings of Irish music for years (since 1975). I haven’t had any coaching, nor do I know, nor have I ever known any other whistle players who could coach me. (It’s only in the last year that I ever met any other musicians who play Irish music.) So, it’s been all a self-teaching enterprise. I’ve been listening carefully to how the music is expressed, the timing, ornamentation, phrasing, etc. And I’ve been trying to imitate the stuff I’ve heard. Between focusing on that and drilling some skill and fluidity into my fingers, (a very slow and gradual task, as yet far from completed) I’m only feeling now that I’m making some headway. (I probably have 4 or 5 years of accumulated practice under my belt.)Getting comfortable enough on the instrument is allowing me to experiment more with the handling of the music, trying new ways of phrasing and ornamenting. (Listening to my own recordings sometimes makes me cringe, but it also helps me critique what seems to work and what doesn’t.)

I enjoy listening to the other players on Clips and Snips (as an example of “non-professional” playing :slight_smile: )There are sometimes surprises and I hear different ways of playing a tune I may not have considered (because I didn’t think of it). However, I don’t use the archive as a resource for improving my playing. I’ve got a boatload of cd’s and tapes of professionals to help with that. And the slow playing software is fabulous for working out the tricky bits.

I’ll take this opportunity again to suggest Martin Hayes, the fiddle player, as a resource for hearing how the tunes are put together because he goes slow and is very discreet with his phrasing and ornamentation.
Tony

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I guess I might be embarrassed after what has been said, but I actually have downloaded a couple tunes from clips and snips to learn by ear. I listen to Irish Music all day long non-stop and I find many of the tunes on clips refreshing to hear. They seem more attainable to me right now at the stage I’m in then compared to Mary Bergin.

8

Irish music is now popular all over the world and people will learn it any way they can. That in my opinion is how music grows and branches off into different directions.
I think if someone wants to learn a traditional style they should take Stevie’s advice, but in general people take what they like and copy that - be it traditional or otherwise.

Music is a communication and it should be heard and played on all levels, that way the whole picture becomes clearer.

Dave.

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Neil, one can quickly get into hot water with words like right and wrong. I prefer to talk of good and bad, and points in between, because I know exactly what I mean by these terms.

When I describe the site in question as not good for beginners, I’m assuming that beginners want to learn to play good Irish music.

So what do I mean by good? I mean playing in a way that is not only musically satisfying to yourself, but also in a way that is acceptable and pleasing to the large body of traditional musicians, including its very best proponents.

If people are not concerned with this, well, end of discussion. Go ahead, murder the Kesh jig! You’ll be in good company.

Where should beginners go, Erik? Not the web, probably! Somewhere where they can hear and listen and talk to people who know a little or preferably a lot more than they do. Summer school, maybe!

10

Thanks everyone for taking my post in the equitable manner in which it was intended :slight_smile: I’ve got a couple of thoughts/responses, but it’s late here so I’ll save them for tomorrow. Goodnight.

Erik

[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-11-07 17:02 ]

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On 2001-11-07 14:11, CraigMc wrote:
tunes from clips and snips … seem more attainable to me right now at the stage I’m in then compared to Mary Bergin.

I sympathize totally. No harm in learning tunes by ear from Clips and Snips. But to develop a good traditional style (if that’s what you want - see my post above), you need to listen to other stuff.

There’s lots of lovely traditional whistle around that is more attainable than Mary Bergin. Try Miko Russell, Mike McHale, Jack Coen (flute) for starters. Anyone have other suggestions for simpler but authentic recordings?

12

Chris Laughlin started a thread on the flute forum titled “My thoughts on tone, embouchure, and what to listen to”, with a list of suggested/recommended traditional musicians. He notes that while groups like Lunasa can be great to listen to, they’re often difficult for beginners to play along with, and that it’s probably best to start out listening to older, more traditional recordings when learning to play by ear (I’m paraphrasing him here, please excuse any misinterpretation of his message). That thread might be worth checking out for anyone looking for something very traditional.

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On 2001-11-07 17:04, StevieJ wrote:
. . .Anyone have other suggestions for simpler but authentic recordings?

Off the top of my head. . .

Josie McDermott (flute, whistle) more for his flute work, his whistle playing is very staccato and more unique and individual than most traditional whistling

*Seamus Ennis (pipes, whistle) lovely whistle

Mike Rafferty (flute) recordings with daughter Mary

*Kieran Collins

*Bobby Casey (fiddle) slow & enchanting recordings

*the band Na Fili (pipes & whistle)

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Well if I need to listen to more Irish music to play it, then what would you fine folks reccomend?

Keep in mind I’ve grown up on an oddish mix of classical music, old rock-n-roll, and modern alternative/weirdo independent rock, and thus my exposure to folk music has been somewhat limited…

eep

Oh, and also, I’m kind of a dummy.

^___^

If I’m bothering you or you think that fans of rock music have no business fiddling around with folk music, well just don’t pay attention to me…


one by one the penguins steal my sanity

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[quote]
On 2001-11-07 17:04, StevieJ wrote:
There’s lots of lovely traditional whistle around that is more attainable than Mary Bergin. Try Miko Russell, Mike McHale, Jack Coen (flute) for starters. Anyone have other suggestions for simpler but authentic recordings?

[quote]

I think the 4 CD set and music book for 121 Favorite Irish Session Tunes by L.E.McCullough qualifies as simple and authentic. The playing on these CD’s is certainly far more attainable although less inspiring than the playing of some of the musicians mentioned in the quote.

[ This Message was edited by: Tom_Gaul on 2001-11-07 18:10 ]

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Quotes are from StevieJ, above.

Neil, one can quickly get into hot water with words like right and wrong. I prefer to talk of good and bad, and points in between, because I know exactly what I mean by these terms.

“Good” and “bad” are the same sorts of terms as “right” and “wrong”. One immediately has to decide who gets to define them, and when it comes to matters of aesthetics, there’s no such things as these. You may consider that you know what they mean, but that doesn’t mean anyone else has to agree with you.

Some people think hip-hop is quite the thing. I can’t stand it. Is hip-hop therefore good, or is it bad? Who made me an arbiter?

When I describe the site in question as not good for beginners, I’m assuming that beginners want to learn to play good Irish music.

So what do I mean by good? I mean playing in a way that is not only musically satisfying to yourself, but also in a way that is acceptable and pleasing to the large body of traditional musicians, including its very best proponents.

Rhetorical question: Why should I care what anyone else thinks of what I play, so long as it’s pleasing to me? I don’t play music as a means of being accepted by anybody; I play it because I love the sound of it. I do listen to the work of better players as a means of picking up ideas, but that’s my prerogative. So is what I pick up.

I’m not Irish, though I am descended in part from Irish people, and I refuse to be “green beer” Irish. I can’t pretend to be something I’m not, and when I play a song it will have a bit of me in it – otherwise, why bother? That means it isn’t necessarily going to sound like a large body of traditional musicians played it. Oh well. That’s folk music.

If people are not concerned with this, well, end of discussion. Go ahead, murder the Kesh jig! You’ll be in good company.

And no traditional Irishman ever murdered the Kesh Jig? And by whose standards?

Maybe someone will murder the Kesh Jig one day. Who’s going to put him on trial? On what charge? I may not like the way he plays it myself, but if he does I have no quarrel with him. There’s nothing that says I have to listen.

17

I must start of with saying that I love this discussion. Okay this is what I feel:

Although folk music can encompass a variety of playing methods, there are certain boundaries as well as similiarities that govern it. This applies to all genres of music. That means, that if you’re not within the boundaries, you’re probably not playing folk/jazz/gospel/nu-metal/ambient/etc music. There is nothing intrinsically “wrong”, or “bad” with not playing tunes in folk music style. Its just not folk music.

An example where folk melodies can be used, and yet not be classified under folk, is Max Bruch’s Scottish Fantasy for violin and orchestra. The concerto utilises many famous Scottish folk tunes but its not generally recognised as a folk piece but a classical piece. Therefore, folk melodies played in any-o-way usually does not fall under folk music.

Additionally, “xyz” folk music tends to have a connection with the traditions, as well as the “xyz” people who originated it. (If one or two persons play, in insolation, a new “kind” of music, it will never be considered folk music because they don’t really consititute a “people”). Hence “xyz” folk music must have general acceptence of the “xyz” the people as their folk music. If the music one plays does not have any connection with the past music styles of the “xyz” people, it is hard to claim that one is play “xyz” folk music.

Yet folk music does evolve (slowly) and the definition of it changes over time. Just like the genre of “Oldies”, which may constitute punk-rock 50 years from now. As it changes, music styles with too many deviations from the original style would most likely branch out to a new genre itself. The original style itself changes slowly.

Also note that people who front new styles/changes in celtic folk music like Eileen Ivers, Mike McGoldrick and Brian Finnegan are already masters in the traditional styles.

While it is okay to play music the way you want it, there are advantages to play folk music in folk music style. Not only will you aquire a channel for expression and etc that music in general provides, you also learn about the traditions and the people as a whole. Moreover, it can also become a social activity, playing commonly recognised music amongst musicians like sessions are. However, if the your entire soul and being rends against playing tunes in that manner, you can opt not to do so and its better to do it your way.

Okay thats the end of my discordant and veering off tangent comments=)

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raises hand tentatively

ummmm, I just wanted to add that I listen to Clips and Snips to learn more tunes (esp. trad ones).

However, I have also bought quite a few CDs (thanks to all your recommendations here) to get an idea of the feel and sound of accomplished whistle playing, and Irish trad (no sessions here, except maybe Eldarion’s :slight_smile: ). I think once you’ve got an idea of that, you should be able to be discerning in listening to Clips and Snips and other such sites. No offence to anyone; after all, I consider myself a beginner as well! and not really into TRAD trad, if you know what I mean.

I think that if you play the whistle, you would acknowledge that Irish trad is a big part of its vocabulary. Even if you’re not that interested in playing that type of music on the whistle, you would still listen to some good examples to Irish or Celtic or trad whistle playing, to improve yourself and get some ideas.

It’s like wanting to play sax, and not listening to jazz/blues sax styles. (yeah yeah, I’m aware of classical sax…)

That said, I like listening to all of us play. It’s fun and we get to know a little more about the people we talk to on this board.

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Telegram Sam,
your post is honest and refreshing and without pretension…nothing wrong with `tradíng up your rock or vise-versa in my oppinion.Paul Brady,Van Morrison,The Chieftans,The Pogues,Christy Moore,Mary Black,Sting,U2,Dubliners. …the list is endless.An open mind is also an open heart. Peace,Mike :slight_smile:

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The whole thing about this issue is that some of you refuse to recognise there are basics to be learned. When learning jazz, rock or whatever, there is a certain foundation you need to play the music properly. So too in Irish music. The beauty of the music is that within the framework of the music there is a huge variety of styles and plenty possibilities for all sorts of personal expression. However you do need to have the basics right, and I don’t mean the ability to handle your instruments but the rules, lanmguage or whatever you want to call it of the music. Style, yes that comes into it but the different styles have a common ground, and that’s where you start.