Deadwood, Montana: Geography anyone?

Anna. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not down on oral traditions or aboriginal peoples. I also don’t know much about the situation in the US - I don’t live in the US (well, I did live for 2 years but that’s not the point). You’ll also get no argument from me that that written histories are always accurate - they too are often fraught with inaccuracies and lies. Oral traditions do often reveal interesting and useful information about our world. But oral traditions also tend to become distorted and biased - sometimes its intential and sometimes it isn’t. For example, much of the oral traditions of Canadian aboriginals no longer mention that slavery was a part of many aboriginal cultures. It is an undisputed and highly documented fact yet many aboriginals don’t know it or want to dicuss it because their cultures won’t look as much like “Utopia wrecked by Europeans”

About twenty years ago I was fishing on the banks of the South Saskatchewan River about 80 miles downstream of a rather large reservoir called Diefenbaker Lake which was formed when a pair of dams built in 1967. This particular river (which is quite big) sits in a valley that was actually a huge glacial outwash channel that was created at the end of the Pleistoscene (sp?) glaciation 10-13,000 years ago. Consequently, the level of the river is typically 40-60 metres below valley ridges and has been since the glaciers melted.

Anyway, as I fished, an old aboriginal man (he said was at least 80 years but didn’t exactly know ehen he was born) came along and he struck up a lovely conversation. As it turned out he was an Elder form one of the local Cree indian reserves. We discussed many things and he shared with me stories of his life. After a while he began talking about all the destruction White Man has caused - much of it was true and, to be honest, I can’t imagine living through some of the things he did. Then he said something that struck me as most interesting, “Before the dam was built the water in the river was close to the edge of the valley (pinting to the ridge 50 metres above us)”. Of course, this was total nonsense because the water hadn’t been that high for 10,000 years. So much for reliabilty of oral traditions. I don’t doubt much of what he said but there is physical evidence that refutes some of it.

This doesn’t mean that science (which is not perfect either) and oral traditons have to conflict. I just read an article about global warming from some scientists studying evidence in Canada’s north. For the first time ever some Inuit people saw a Robin on their remote Northern island. It was spotted by some school children who didn’t know what kind of bird it was until it was positively ID’d by a non-Inuit school teacher (who was originally from Southern Canada where they are as common as sparrows). The children and the teacher described the bird to an old village Elder to find out what they should call it in their language - the elder said their language has no name for this bird because it doesn’t belong there. Last year the same thing happened with a beetle that had never been seen there before. Additionally, there are no other recorded instances of Robins (or the beetle) that far north in either the scientific literature or in the oral tradition of aboriginals. The conclusion is that becuse the North is getting warmer it is now a more hospitable climate for “Southern species”.

[ This Message was edited by: garycrosby on 2002-06-21 14:15 ]

You guys are pretty dang smart. How interesting. Glad you didn’t give up on thread to make those statements.

Somebody up at Humboldt wrote their thesis about a local tribe and their tradition of torching an area (the Kneeland prairie) every year to make certain plants grow so they could harvest the seeds etc.

The same “scholar” then wrote a more informal article in the Humboldt Historian, the local hist. society journal. The author refused to touch the concept of how it would be viewed if a white guy burned the land every year but the whole thing had the politically correct Euro-bashing intact. It went on and on about the balance of nature but sent me over the top with a putdown paraphrased as: then the Europeans came who had no connection to nature or the land. Stated in a way that implied it as a permanent state, not a historical moment.

Just about choked on my Cheerios at that. I feel the earth under my feet, appreciate nature and all its glories and subtleties. I really do not want to hear some wannabe Indian tell me that I can;t possibly feel as they feel (I think Anna covered this a page ago). It’s crap. That kind of statement jumps out from the revisionism that it is to become like a personal insult. Guess that was part of my reaction to Californicator too in a way.

On 2002-06-21 15:57, The Weekenders wrote:
You guys are pretty dang smart. How interesting. Glad you didn’t give up on thread to make those statements.

Just about choked on my Cheerios at that. I feel the earth under my feet, appreciate nature and all its glories and subtleties. I really do not want to hear some wannabe Indian tell me that I can;t possibly feel as they feel (I think Anna covered this a page ago). It’s crap. That kind of statement jumps out from the revisionism that it is to become like a personal insult. Guess that was part of my reaction to Californicator too in a way.

LOL! Not so smart, just opinionated! LOL!

Aren’t Wannabees obnoxious? I dislike the “Little Bit” Indians, too. They have no papers, and the war cry is “BUT…I’m part Indian!” Lucky us, we never had to live on a reservation, we were never targets of the unconscious racism…but we do perpetrate it by refusing to learn what it’s really like…
and who these people really are.

BTW, did you hear the one about the anthro who spent years cultivating the people of a tribe, he spent years and years becoming one of them. When he finally got up the courage to ask the elders if he could do some real digging on sacred ground. The elders nodded their assent and pointed him towards a small knoll…


The site turned out to be a filled in OUTHOUSE!

Old Annie Winnesheck old me this one, said to ask any Indian who lives in Nebraska on the Winnebago res.


Waiting for the Mothership…

[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-21 16:18 ]

Heh heh, “Californicators”. I’m really late in getting into this, but I was amazed no one has actually provided the correct name for folks from the great golden state of California, which is “Calvestites”.

Just pretend Don Rickles said it and move on. Jaysus.

On 2002-06-20 18:52, chas wrote:
WI make beer, wine, cider, and mead. Anyone who ferments stuff (zymurgist, FYI) knows that if you put in too much food for the yeast, they will die before all the sugar is gone. They drown in their own waste (alcohol). I don’t want that to happen to all of us.





[ This Message was edited by: chas on 2002-06-20 18:54 ]

Charlie, don’t we breath the equivalent of plant poop?

The Weekenders wrote:
To a Californian, Wal-Mart seems like some tacky outfit that came from out-of-state (yes, it’s kind of a snobby attitude but I am being honest about it). Its the retail equivalent of the put-down “trailer trash.” We do have “native” stores, like Mervyn’s (from Hayward CA) and Safeway (from Oakland CA) that did originate here. They “seem” like California stores to us here (for good or bad)…

Isn’t Mervyn’s California owned by Minnesota-based Target?

The Weekenders wrote:
They only build them where they can get land super-cheap. I can’t stand the place and have a standing gag that Walmart is “where Satan goes to shop.” They are bad for everybody and have been fought in several communities where they wanted to locate. Of course, the retailer usually wins.

Its just seems like a creepy post-industrial nightmare to me. So once again, its not a California thing at all but like a hound on a scent, I am sure they follow the affluence of emerging areas. When people move out of state, they have capital in-hand from having sold their property at exorbitant rates… So I can see where one would think that Californians bring Walmarts etc.

They started in small towns (parasite that Wal-Mart is), and put every other store out of business. Then they opened up the “Supercenter” in the city, and shut down the stores in neighboring small towns, thus drying up all sales tax in the towns that now have NO retailers. The only store to continue to thrive, where Wal-Mart is long established, is Dollar General, which is Wal-Martier than Wal-Mart.

The Weekenders wrote:
The stores seem like a really cheesy mixture of third-world chaos but slightly cleaner. Its so weird. You can;t really find anything purposefully but you do find bargains on stuff you didn’t ever intend to buy. A perfect formula for over-spending by the vulnerable. Now that’s Satanic!!! > :slight_smile:

I lived in a “Third World” country for most of my teenage years. I can attest that superstores were quite popular there before Wal-Mart and Kmart went the supercenter route.

The Weekenders wrote:
The only thing I ever bought there was, ironically, a BB Gun!! To kill rats!!!
Just kidding…

As a teenager, my uncle refused to wear Wal-Mart clothes. So Grandma bought his Levi’s at Wal-Mart, and put them into a department store bag. He went on to become national Wal-Mart manager of the year, in the early 90’s.


Walden


Deus converte nos et ostende faciem tuam et salvi erimus</font color>

[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-06-21 20:10 ]

Mervyn’s was started as a single store in Hayward way before it was bought by Dayton Hudson, who owns both Target and Mervyn’s.
There was a guy named Mervyn.

When they build new malls out here, they put em both in and almost managed to get a rapid transit station built into the parking lot here in the East Bay. I only know this because of an extended zoning fight I was involved in as a neighborhood activist.

Interesting info Walden!!
Just remember, its where Satan goes to shop!!

I used to hear Paul Harvey go on and on about what a great guy Sam Walton (founder) was and what a great place Walmart was . Sheesh.

Its a temple… of something…in his memory.

Paul Harvey is, after all, from Eastern Oklahoma – Sam’s old stomping ground.

I think the Paul Harvey program is still full of stories about how wonderful Wal-Mart is.

On 2002-06-21 18:52, The Weekenders wrote:

Interesting info Walden!!
Just remember, its where Satan goes to shop!!

That’s why I shop at Dollar General Store. Our town now has two of them. So does the next town up the road.


Walden


Deus converte nos et ostende faciem tuam et salvi erimus</font color>

[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-06-21 20:15 ]

My opinion of Wal-Mart was formed in Durham, NC, right after Hurricane Fran. We were out of power for weeks, and we discovered shortly after the winds stopped that our Coleman lantern had a broken pump. We went to Wal-Mart, stood in line for over an hour (they weren’t letting people in because the power was out…you had to stand in line at the front door and place your order, and an employee with a flashlight would run back and get it). When we finally made it up to the makeshift cash register, we were told that they wouldn’t accept checks or cards because they couldn’t use their electronic verification system…so we went home empty handed.

The next day we tried K-mart. We stood in line there for about an hour too. When we got up to the cash register, they said “Checks? No problem!” We told the manager about our experience with Wal-Mart, and he told us “Well, we figure we may take a few losses, but we like to think that most people are honest, and right now we all have to help each other.”

Haven’t darkened the door of a Wal-Mart since, but still cheerfully give my business to K-mart :slight_smile:

Redwolf

I think I’ll stick with Campell’s farm supply store, end up dressing funny, but at least it’s warm! Discovered horse shampoo
and hoof conditioner…

Ahh! Another loyal farm & ranch shopper. I know you can buy a huge scak of rabbit feed at a farm store, that you would give the same price for a tiny box of at Wal-Mart. But Wal-Mart bought out the big farm store in Oklahoma, too.

Actually Wal-Mart has REALLY gone downhill since Sam died (and it wasn’t too far up that hill to start with), and I suspect they may come tumbling down. But then the economy would collapse.

[/quote]
That’s why I shop at Dollar General Store. Our town now has two of them. So does the next town up the road.
[/quote]

Grim choices in the heartland, I take it. We have these slave labor 99cent stores that probably resemble the selection available to the many immigrants from poor countries who live here.But I guess Dollar refers to a chain?

Unless you have visited here Walden, the one thing that many heartland Americans cannot conceive is the immigrant flux in our urban areas. It changes everything involving public transactions and their behavior in these kinds of stores is an extension of those differences. We have all these Nail salons run by Asians that we never had until the various Boat people figured out how to go into business. I’m not condemning it, but its weird.

And the interesting thing about Redwolf’s experience is that Kmart filed bankruptcy, right?Semi-good guys lost.

Our K-Marts preceded but presaged WalMart. Joke around here is that Kmart is where you go to beat your kids, because that’s what so many of the shoppers did there (not your upscale shoppers there). The current Kmart close by has at least one heavy-duty ex-con, tattoos and all, working the checkout. Man, handing my credit card to that guy was an experience in terror and shame…

But Target has basically supplanted KMart. We actually can buy anything in the Bay Area because we have so many businesses and importers so I don;t think those chains have the sway right here in the urbanized part.Costco is the one place where just about everybody goes, even the Berkeley radicals. I was cracking up one day because I came upon the photos of the former Mayor of Berkeley and her husband (same last initial as mine so I was looking in the bin). I mean, these folks are the kind that go to Cuba and hug Fidel but there were their photos, sitting at Costco.

And now we have Ikea, where white people look whiter and the dark people look pale. Its the damdest thing. Giant store with nearly absurd made up Swedish names for all their component furniture. I withstood visits twice but basically hate it. I feel like I’m in a Fellini movie when I go there.

Wonder if they’ll have a “Wistlen” at Ikea?? a three piece unfinished baltic birch pennywhistle, complete with allen wrench and plastic wrapped directions.

You guys make great company and I appreciate it.

[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-06-21 23:30 ]

On 2002-06-21 21:48, The Weekenders wrote:

Grim choices in the heartland, I take it. We have these slave labor 99cent stores that probably resemble the selection available to the many immigrants from poor countries who live here.But I guess Dollar refers to a chain?

The clothes wear like iron for centuries, horse shampoo is cheap and a pint will last a year…Hoof Maker is the BEST hand lotion around to the poit where we call it “the Bartenders friend.” However, most of us shop from catalogs, every day by the mailboxes you see three or four packages. Some of my most favorite years were spend living in Chicago’s North Side China town with those folks from the Pacific Rim! The kids taught me to cuss in Cantonese! They get paid in rice and beans!

Unless you have visited here Walden, the one thing that many heartland Americans cannot conceive is the immigrant flux in our urban areas. It changes everything involving public transactions and their behavior in these kinds of stores is an extension of those differences. We have all these Nail salons run by Asians that we never had until the various Boat people figured out how to go into business. I’m not condemning it, but its weird.

That’s the one thing I miss the most is that immigrant flux. The fingernail thing…shudder, very wierd…but they give good haircuts! Howeverm when I was going into chemotherapy, I tried to get one to shave my head the easy way and she refused, so we had a hair party instead! Now THAT was weird! One of the best whistlers I met is a classical Daoist scholar who took it up as a lark!

And the interesting thing about Redwolf’s experience is that Kmart filed bankruptcy, right?Semi-good guys lost.

Anybody notice any real difference in service or prodycts there? It’s still a great to buy BB shot!

Our K-Marts preceded but presaged WalMart. Joke around here is that Kmart is where you go to beat your kids, because that’s what so many of the shoppers did there (not your upscale shoppers there). The current Kmart close by has at least one heavy-duty ex-con, tattoos and all, working the checkout. Man, handing my credit card to that guy was an experience in terror and shame…

LOL! Seems our local junkie was a manager there…
[/quote]

In Chicago the chain stores were in outlying suburbs and malls, there used to be a dynamite Ben Franklin on Michigan Avenue, which made for some very nice shopping sprees on 20 bucks! One of these days I’ll have to tell you about the results of my adventure in the ladies underwear department!

But Target has basically supplanted KMart. We actually can buy anything in the Bay Area because we have so many businesses and importers so I don;t think those chains have the sway right here in the urbanized part.Costco is the one place where just about everybody goes, even the Berkeley radicals. I was cracking up one day because I came upon the photos of the former Mayor of Berkeley and her husband (same last initial as mine so I was looking in the bin). I mean, these folks are the kind that go to Cuba and hug Fidel but there were their photos, sitting at Costco.

LOL! Wish we had a few locals like that, guess I’m it! Um, need to go back to Argyle street to those ethnic shops and buy an ancestor shrine for an installation in the Chinese sectio of Boot Hill! Snerk!

And now we have Ikea, where white people look whiter and the dark people look pale. Its the damdest thing. Giant store with nearly absurd made up Swedish names for all their component furniture. I withstood visits twice but basically hate it. I feel like I’m in a Fellini movie when I go there.

Wonder if they’ll have a “Wistlen” at Ikea?? a three piece unfinished baltic birch pennywhistle, complete with allen wrench and plastic wrapped directions.

Laughing so hard I peed my pants! Ya know I can’t even buy Haagen Daas here! The day I find a birch “wistlen” is the day I leave for the Gobi desert!

You guy make great company and I appreciate it.

You’re pretty good company yourself, Dood!

Well, we’ve also got Sears and Western Auto (same ownership aren’t they?), and JC Penney, and Radio Shack, as well as some local chain stores, and local non-chain stores. No Costco, Wal-Mart beat them with Sam’s. In Tulsa there’s most of the major chains, such as Home Depot, Mervyn’s, Target, Kmart, Foley’s, Marshall’s, Dillard’s, Garden Ridge, the various mall stores etc. But I don’t live in Tulsa.

Dollar General is indeed a chain. Didn’t you ever listen to Grand Ole Opry? It’s not like the 99 cent stores (which we also have around here). It preceded the 99 cent stores by a few decades, and carries various priced poorly-made items, not just 99 cent ones.

We had Safeway for several decades, but the Oklahoma stores became “Homeland” in the late 80’s. Some of them closed, but the one here is still in business.

Still . . . one perk of living here, is the ready availability of Amish baked goods.


Walden


Deus converte nos et ostende faciem tuam et salvi erimus</font color>

[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-06-22 07:12 ]

Didja know that Wal-Mart is #1 on th Fortune 500 list with 219,812.0 in revenue. K-Mart is 100th on the list of international biggies with 37,028.0

It’s a conspiracy!


Waiting for the Mothership…

[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-22 18:32 ]

When you started this thread it wasn’t OT at all.

Wal-Mart started off more like a 5&10 type store (or Gibson’s), then purposely became more Kmart-like. In the early days Kmart and Wal-Mart mostly operated in different communities, but when they wound up in the same town . . . well . . . one Mart seemed to say to the other, “this town’s not big enough for the both of us.”