Many of you are expressing your feelings on issues that are very close to my heart. In Marfa, the reputed enemy is the Houstonian because a few transplanted Houstonians here have given the rest a bad rap. I just recently read parts of a book called The Devil’s Bargain about the inherent evils of the tourism industry in the southwest. Marfa has been a dying town for decades, and now that there is the opportunity to attract tourists, it is selling its soul to the devil. I could go on but that would mean mentioning specific businesses and names.
Some of TX’s Big Bend’s worst enemies are Texan, and from Austin, a town reputed to be much ‘greener’ than Enron’s Houston. We are all effected by a very long term drought in this state, and yet an Austinite converts beautiful, pristine desert in the Lajitas Terlingua area into a golf course replete with expansive water hazards. More water is pumped from the aquifer in the south of that county in one day to maintain those water hazards than two hundred-acre tomato greenhouses in the next county use in a whole month. And people used to complain about the tomato businesses wasting precious aquifer water. I have golfer friends who are happy to golf on desert golf courses, where native plants abound and the least water possible is used to irrigate. I don’t blame this on golfers.
I know that environmentalism can be taken to the extreme, but I have very strong feelings about protecting our natural resources. I wanted to do something, and I realized that there are many similar minded people in this region, but we are scattered and in limited contact. So, I created a zine that features people in the Big Bend region living in environmentally friendly ways. Now we can see what each other is doing, know who each other is, spread our sense of responsibility for our natural resources, and eventually and hopefully become a force that exploiters must contend with. My zine works by setting positive examples and not negative criticism. It’s called green marfan. The first two issues can be had for 1.25 postage paid, and anyone who would like to start something similar in their area can get free help from me on how to do it. green marfan, P.O. Box 330, Marfa TX 79843
Lisa
Anna, I understand being upset by out-of-staters moving in and living in places with which they have no historical connection, but before you lived there (or your father) it was the native-American’s land. Imagine how they felt when their land was forcefully taken. I hate to say it, but you have no more claim to the land than anyone else and it is hypocrisy to point fingers at Californians or anyone else who might want to live there.
Best,
Chris
On 2002-06-20 13:19, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
Anna, I understand being upset by out-of-staters moving in and living in places with which they have no historical connection, but before you lived there (or your father) it was the native-American’s land. Imagine how they felt when their land was forcefully taken. I hate to say it, but you have no more claim to the land than anyone else and it is hypocrisy to point fingers at Californians or anyone else who might want to live there.
Best,
Chris
Hi, Chris, I totally agree, even though non-Indians have a deep connection to the land, we certainly have no legal claim on the land. The indignenous cultures were here first, and there is a long trail of broken treaties. It doens’t mean, however, that we love it less. One point I would like to make, and I hear it much too often from South Dakotans is this: We may not have personally stolen the land out from under the Indigenious people, our ancestors did that. We DID benefit from it. What is important is that we stop the desecration of the land and the legalized theft of the land. It’s pretty damn hard to know you can’t go near the creek outside the front door because the water is full of cyanide and mercury…it still looks clear, and when I was growing up here, the most dangerous thing about sitting in the creek and eating fresh watercress was that a bear could have peed up stream. That doesn’t bother me a bit, but heavy metals do!
I spend a lot of time on Pine Ridge, those traditional Indian people have a lot of good things to teach us.
Waiting for the Mothership…
[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-20 13:27 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-20 13:44 ]
Peace Anna. Sorry to join the bandwagon.
Chris
On 2002-06-20 13:39, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
Peace Anna. Sorry to join the bandwagon.
Chris
It’s OK Chris, this thread has the potential to become a really good place to start a dialog, without the flames. (Blush! I’m still embarassed…)
Waiting for the Mothership…
[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-20 13:47 ]
On 2002-06-20 13:26, Anna Martinez wrote:
What is important is that we stop the desecration of the land and the legalized theft of the land.
That was always the point made by my Dad who has great respect for the Indians but was well aware of the pioneer prerogative and what it led to. When it became fashionable to bash ranchers by the Greens, my Dad said defensively that we have always considered ourselves conservationists.
I like the older kind of conservation, that is practical, not the weird new kind that treats humans like they are not of the Earth but interruptors of nature. Heck, we are part of nature and with the big brain and conscience we have this huge responsibility to steward what we have the power to destroy.
Fortunately for my kinfolk, a whole new branch of eco-science has emerged that vindicates the use of grazing animals to improve land and the recent huge wildfires on untouched Govt lands has refocused the lens on whether you can trust govt. “experts” who grab more land than all the movie stars. They refuse to graze or thin dead timber then cry crocodile tears at devastating fires.
There is an upward tilting canyon here in Tilden park (east of Berkeley) that the experts in the local park district have allowed to be filled with fallen trees, which they call Mother trees because they foster termites and centipedes etc. They are eucalyptus, non-native and are extremely flammable. Every time I walk through there, I get the creeps at the impending fire that will happen there someday. My old-fashion conservationist self wants to haul away a few of the fallen logs, especially the ones right near where people walk and smoke and litter. Maybe take some of the branches and mulch em for the trails. Not clear-cut anything but groom a bit. Even this is too much for the smart Greens. The Indians who lived here frequently burned the rats’ nests which are like like incendiary torches waiting to be lit. People ooh and aah about their coyote legends but look the other way at their use of fire for prophylactic purposes.
I am outvoted at the land and hikers peril.
Big issue, spining farther and farther away from whistlin in deadwood…
Know the flamable tree thing so well, pines are fragile enough…add a few bark beetles to them, and a controversy about harvesting the burnt trees…dry winds and no rain…prairie wildfires are pretty bad, but a forest fire…shudder, I am still waiting…
I think it’s the old collision of economic philosophies…the traditional indigenous people tend NOT to accumulate wealth, but have a reciprocal relationship with nature, never taking more than they really need. The Europeans who conquered the New World brought with them the taking more than you need and stashing it. I think my own values are closer to the traditional NA values…which is why I do the whistle giveaway thing…karma…
Waiting for the Mothership…
[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-20 14:06 ]
Probably was safer to stick with the whistle crusade, which we all agreed upon, I expect. Hope it’s going well.
DW: who grew up in Louisiana and whose mom came from Montana and dad came from California, and who wishes she lived somewhere pretty and who only likes the health food store for its snacks. (Sorry, had to add that.):lol:
On 2002-06-20 14:19, Dewhistle wrote:
Probably was safer to stick with the whistle crusade, which we all agreed upon, I expect. Hope it’s going well.
Safe is not always a good thing. I tend to feel uncomfortable in the face of conflict, but it can teach us. My biggest problem is sitting on my impulses and in some ways, that’s also a great gift. Now if I could just stop provoking it.
In the last six months, I have sent out/given away 57 whistles so far and paid for the postage on 17 of them. For somebody who lives on less that $500 a month, this is pretty good. I only brought this to Chiff and Fipple when I realized I simply can’t keep doing this without contributions of whistles from other people because I just ran out of money to buy more whistles. There are now 28 more whistles available, so just let me know if somebody needs one. Two more are off to Thailand and the Philipines, and I’m taking a few with me to Pine Ridge on Wednesday. Anybody want to see the particulars, let me know, will be glad to send them to you, although I was not really through in tracking any of them, except for Sue, the professional adult musician who’s dog got hers. When I get my busted camera outta hock, I’ll take pictures. Meanwhile, I get to go to work busing tables so I can eat this months and have money for more postage!
Gotta be some good karma at work here!
DW: who grew up in Louisiana and whose mom came from Montana and dad came from California, and who wishes she lived somewhere pretty and who only likes the health food store for its snacks. (Sorry, had to add that.):lol:
I’d love to be able to get fresh veggies…sigh…BTW, did we ever reach a consesus as to what might be a good name for it?
That word “crusade” make me wince. The point for me is to simply send whsitles to where they are needed and not available, and that this gift should be unconditional, no strings whatsoever. I got my first whistle from a friend in Australia just because I asked for one, and am just passing his generous gesture on. Since people here have been so generous, and since Thom at The Whistle Shop is doing what he can to make it possible. This is not my own thing anymore…
A person can look to a big picture, and dream on, accomplishing nothing concrete or they can work with what’s there, getting down and dirty, nitty gritty and get something accomplished. It’s seeing the forest for the trees (couldn’t resist 
)
The thing is seeing a need and doing what you can…
Besides, I enjoy corresponding via e-mail with the people I send 'em to! _________________
Waiting for the Mothership…
[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-20 14:42 ]
Standing on my head.
I’m too new here for anyone to know what I mean by that, but if you’ve read “Harpo Speaks” you might have a glimmer.
kiss kiss love love, Bunny. 
IMO we’ve become a politically correct people to a ridiculous point. I’ve lived in Washington, DC and can make and take jokes about politics and politicians; I’ve lived in Wyoming and can make and take jokes about that “interesting” state (my stay there was NOT a happy one); I’ve lived for years in California and can make and take jokes about everything Californians get razzed about; and I currently live in a state where it’s a free-for-all in bashing the dominant religion and believe me, you’d better learn to laugh. I don’t think for a nano-second that Anna intended to offend and doubt if most of us were offended. We’re all different and we each have different opinions based on our upbringing, experiences, education, etc., etc., and guess what? we’re allowed to have those opinions!
To voice one of my all-time favorite quotes: “If we were all the same nobody would care when we died.”
Susan
What an interesting thread – I think we all get to know each other (and appreciate the diversity of the group, and I don’t mean that in the PC way) when things like this pop up. And in many forums this would degenerate into a flamewar instantly.
I’m often the victim of generalizations, harmless ones. Because I don’t think government and/or more money is the solution to every problem, I’m labeled a conservative (it doesn’t bother me, but I don’t think it’s accurate). And, to compound things, most people think it’s impossible to be an environmentalist and a conservative. I know many self-professed liberals (I’m not generalizing, just describing some of the people who accuse me of being an earth-killer. which does bother me) who never recycled a thing till it was made available at curbside. Who have had ponds landscaped in their backyards (read Lisa’s post about golf courses). Who don’t compost bacuase it “might attract raccoons.” Who turn on the AC when the high temperature goes a degree or two above their comfort zone. Who live 50 miles from work and drive SUV’s (real ones) to work by themselves so they can “be closer to nature.”
The water issue will put global warming out of our minds before global warming does a damn thing. Water is one of the main issues in the Arab-Israeli conflict, even though it’s not in the news that much. There are several lawsuits among Southeastern states over use of river water. The water table in parts of the Midwest is 100-150 feet lower than it was 150 years ago, due to irrigation. Most people who have studied it predict that the majority of wars in the 21st century will be largely over water.
I make beer, wine, cider, and mead. Anyone who ferments stuff (zymurgist, FYI) knows that if you put in too much food for the yeast, they will die before all the sugar is gone. They drown in their own waste (alcohol). I don’t want that to happen to all of us.
PS – well said, Susan.
Sorry for ranting. Charlie
[ This Message was edited by: chas on 2002-06-20 18:54 ]
Anna Martinez wrote:
When yuppies and Califonians come to this vast prairie state, unlike some places where they bring Wal-Marts and Home Depots to small towns, and invade and take over and build small ranchettes, they don’t don;t bring goodies like chain stores, or fresh veggies, or organic produce and hot botiques.
Wal-Mart doesn’t come from California, its origins are in this part of the USA. Spreading from Bentonville, Arkansas. It didn’t reach California till pretty late in the game.
There was Wal-Mart in my Eastern Oklahoma hometown before I was born. In fact my mother worked there as a teenager–until they fired her.
On 2002-06-21 02:23, Walden wrote:
Anna Martinez wrote:
When yuppies and Califonians come to this vast prairie state, unlike some places where they bring Wal-Marts and Home Depots to small towns, and invade and take over and build small ranchettes, they don’t don;t bring goodies like chain stores, or fresh veggies, or organic produce and hot botiques.Wal-Mart doesn’t come from California, its origins are in this part of the USA. Spreading from Bentonville, Arkansas. It didn’t reach California till pretty late in the game.
There was Wal-Mart in my Eastern Oklahoma hometown before I was born. In fact my mother worked there as a teenager–until they fired her.
I KNOW that, but they have to have their Starbucks, and they have to have their Gaps and they have to have their K-rap Marts and their Wal-Marts, and that’s not a bad thing. I happen to like Home Depot!
Waiting for the Mothership…
[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-21 12:08 ]
To a Californian, Wal-Mart seems like some tacky outfit that came from out-of-state (yes, it’s kind of a snobby attitude but I am being honest about it). Its the retail equivalent of the put-down “trailer trash.” We do have “native” stores, like Mervyn’s (from Hayward CA) and Safeway (from Oakland CA) that did originate here. They “seem” like California stores to us here (for good or bad)…
They only build them where they can get land super-cheap. I can’t stand the place and have a standing gag that Walmart is “where Satan goes to shop.” They are bad for everybody and have been fought in several communities where they wanted to locate. Of course, the retailer usually wins.
Its just seems like a creepy post-industrial nightmare to me. So once again, its not a California thing at all but like a hound on a scent, I am sure they follow the affluence of emerging areas. When people move out of state, they have capital in-hand from having sold their property at exorbitant rates… So I can see where one would think that Californians bring Walmarts etc.
The stores seem like a really cheesy mixture of third-world chaos but slightly cleaner. Its so weird. You can;t really find anything purposefully but you do find bargains on stuff you didn’t ever intend to buy. A perfect formula for over-spending by the vulnerable. Now that’s Satanic!!! 
The only thing I ever bought there was, ironically, a BB Gun!! To kill rats!!!
Just kidding…
On 2002-06-20 14:00, Anna Martinez wrote:
I think it’s the old collision of economic philosophies…the traditional indigenous people tend NOT to accumulate wealth, but have a reciprocal relationship with nature, never taking more than they really need. The Europeans who conquered the New World brought with them the taking more than you need and stashing it. I think my own values are closer to the traditional NA values…which is why I do the whistle giveaway thing…karma…
Its a bit late to be adding this but I’ll do it anyway.
I think its quite politically correct to bash Europeans and to cling to the myth that traditional indigenous people “never took more than what they needed” but its not necassarily the truth. Every culture exploits nature to the limit that their technology allows them. But, NA culture at the time of the European conquest, had stone age technology which was usually too inefficient to permit exploitation much above the level required for human subsistance. The only reason why NA didn’t take more from nature than they need was because their technology didn’t allow them too. But, once they got better technology they over-exploited nature just like every other culture. Here are a few Canadian aboriginal examples:
Hunting of fur bearing animals - Aboriginal harvest of fur-bearing animals was sustainable until they got guns from England and France. Then, in cooperation with the French, English, and Metis they managed to quickly wipe out the valuable fur-bearing animals from most of Canada in a very short period of time.
Buffalo Jumps - A good friend of mine, an archeologist, told me about this one (Note: a buffalo jump is where you chase buffalo off cliffs to their deaths and then slaughter them fro food and hides and such - I’m sure Anna knows this but so of our foreign friend’s here may not). The school text books state that Indians only took what they needed but if you examine a buffalo jump you typically find that only 5 - 20% of the animals have slaughter marks on them. This means that 80 - 95% of the animals were wasted. But, the explanation is simple - buffalo are herding animals that like to stay together as a herd so its nearly impossible to separate just one or two animals from a herd of 500,000 - you end up driving 10, 20, 50, or 100 over the cliff when all you need are a few. You take what you can preserve and carry before the whole mess rots in the prairie heat and then you move on and leave the rest to the scavengers.
Fishing (I personally know lots about this one because I use to be an environmental consultant who worked in the field of sustainable fisheries). Most traditional aboriginal fishing was done with various sorts of traps during fish spawning time which was the only time that fish were oncentrated enough in one area to make the effort to catch them worthwhile. Aboriginal technology was not very efficient - it would catch enough fish to make the effort worthwhile but would catch few enough that the fish population would not be damaged. Nowadays, Canadian aboriginals fish with gillnets, powerboats, and sonar throughout the year and have effectively wiped out fish from hundreds of lakes. I personally studied one lake in which a group of three aboriginals took 90% of the spawning size lake trout from a massive lake because of they put their nets and then illegally sold the fish on the black market - the commercial fishery and tourism-based sport fishery on this lake (a total estimated value of about $10 million CDN) is now shut down due to this massive over exploitation.
As far as accumulating wealth is concerned, this predates Europeans by thousand of years - the Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, and almost every other great culture accumulated wealth in one form or another. IMO its part of human nature. Even in the Americas before the European conquest there are fine examples of accumulating wealth. The Maya, Aztec, Inca, and others all had “elite” classes in their societies that accumulated wealth. Geesh, a large proportion of the gold and other “treasure” of the Catholic Church were robbed from these elite, taken back to Europe, and then reformed into objects that were more acceptable to the Church.
“Things kept going from bad to worse, but we all put our shoulders to the wheel, and it wasn’t long before I was flat on my back again.”
Groucho Marx :roll:
On 2002-06-21 12:06, The Weekenders wrote:
To a Californian, Wal-Mart seems like some tacky outfit that came from out-of-state (yes, it’s kind of a snobby attitude but I am being honest about it). Its the retail equivalent of the put-down “trailer trash.” We do have “native” stores, like Mervyn’s (from Hayward CA) and Safeway (from Oakland CA) that did originate here. They “seem” like California stores to us here (for good or bad)…
Oh, our prefab pre-constructed homes and triple-widers shop at K-rap Mart and Target, but I never did mistake WalMart for a CA store, simply because I once got 10 pounds of chicken legs and thighs there for all of 39 cents a pound! (which are still in the freezer for some reason) The dang store is a boon for those of us who literally cannot buy a pair of shoestrings here in Deadwood. It just takes all day to find them, and after wandering in those huge canyons of merchandise for hours at a time trying to find them, my legs end up hurting!
Its just seems like a creepy post-industrial nightmare to me. So once again, its not a California thing at all but like a hound on a scent, I am sure they follow the affluence of emerging areas. When people move out of state, they have capital in-hand from having sold their property at exorbitant rates… So I can see where one would think that Californians bring Walmarts etc.
Thng is, the affluent still get to go to spend their money in real department stores in real malls!
The stores seem like a really cheesy mixture of third-world chaos but slightly cleaner. Its so weird. You can;t really find anything purposefully but you do find bargains on stuff you didn’t ever intend to buy. A perfect formula for over-spending by the vulnerable. Now that’s Satanic!!! >
Then why is that chicken still in the freezer? YUCK!
The only thing I ever bought there was, ironically, a BB Gun!! To kill rats!!!
Just kidding…
Hey, I did the same thing…to kill rats at the dump, really! Not kidding!
Um, Gary, I tend to stick with the oral traditions from the people themselves, they were known to pull anthro’s legs in more than one way! Heck, I screwed up a dig here in Deadwood where they are digging up the old China Town before they put in another parking lot. I threw a gold plated Sung Dynasty coin over the fence. The reaction was pretty funny.
Waiting for the Mothership…
[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-21 12:37 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-21 12:38 ]
Anna wrote in part:
Um, Gary, I tend to stick with the oral traditions from the people themselves, they were known to pull anthro’s legs in more than one way! Heck, I screwed up a dig here in Deadwood where they are digging up the old China Town before they put in another parking lot. I threw a gold plated Sung Dynasty coin over the fence. The reaction was pretty funny.
Not to steal Gary’s thunder, but I wanted to make a couple of comments here.
I’m not at all sure what your point is, Anna, but you seem to be mixing your metaphors. Gary wasn’t citing anthropological evidence, certainly in the case of the buffalo jumps, the nature and extent of which I’m aware of from other sources. The archaeologists are the ones who tell us about these. Margaret Mead, an anthropologist, got ripped on Samoa by some teenage girls with really good senses of humor, but butcher-marks on bone are pretty diagnostic. One can count skeletal sets and do carbon-14 dating of the remains to determine the date of the incident, so the facts regarding buffalo jumps seem pretty well established. His comments on the depletion of fish and fur-bearing critters are based on direct observation.
Just as is the case with we of European stock, any people’s tales about themselves can be most self-serving and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Gary’s comments are solidly grounded. There is a strong ( politically correct ) modern tendency to regard pre-Colombian North America as a sort of heaven on earth which was spoilt by the nasty Europeans. It was no such thing.
On 2002-06-21 13:15, ndjr wrote:
Not to steal Gary’s thunder, but I wanted to make a couple of comments here.
I’m not at all sure what your point is, Anna, but you seem to be mixing your metaphors. Gary wasn’t citing anthropological evidence, certainly in the case of the buffalo jumps, the nature and extent of which I’m aware of from other sources. The archaeologists are the ones who tell us about these.
gotcha! It was one of those times I get confused, which happens a lot!
Margaret Mead, an anthropologist, got ripped on Samoa by some teenage girls with really good senses of humor, but butcher-marks on bone are pretty diagnostic. One can count skeletal sets and do carbon-14 dating of the remains to determine the date of the incident, so the facts regarding buffalo jumps seem pretty well established. His comments on the depletion of fish and fur-bearing critters are based on direct observation.
Yes, no argument with scientific methodology, but then again, I still have issues with treaty rights…
Just as is the case with we of European stock, any people’s tales about themselves can be most self-serving and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Kind like the conquerer’s history? We know Julius Cesar was a master propagandist, witness his histories of his conquest of Britain.
Gary’s comments are solidly grounded. There is a strong ( politically correct ) modern tendency to regard pre-Colombian North America as a sort of heaven on earth which was spoilt by the nasty Europeans. It was no such thing.
Dunno if you ever brain tanned a hide..stinks to high heaven and draws flies…the biting kind…not disputing that it wasn’t paradise, but and very aware of the issues now. Once spent a weekend being part of a buffer zone between some Wisconsinites and the Chippewas fishing under their treaty rights in Fon Du Lac…didn’t see any sonar, or gill nets, just spearfishing…I do believe that Native Americans have the status of prisoners of war!