Hi All: Following a lead to Mark Hoza’s newly updated site this morning, ( http://www.woodenflutemaker.com ) and saw those nice looking leather flute cases. Is anyone out there familiar with these? Just wondering…
Mary
Well, I object to leather cases. When I ordered my Powell Silver flute I insisted that it come with a non-leather case. An innocent animal has to die so that some uncaring, uncompassionate person can have a leather case for his or her flute. Other materials are readily available and the moral decision would be to not support those who exploit animals for leather. Leather is skin. The nazis figured this out and made lamp shades from human skin, ie, leather.
I share this concern. I try to
distinguish two cases–the first
where the animal was killed for
her hide. Here buying the leather
product creates demand which
results in more animals killed.
Second, where the animal would
have been killed whether or not
her hide was used, that is, she
is killed for
food. Here I think my buying
the product doesn’t bring about
the death of more animals–who
would be killed in the same
numbers even if we didn’t use
their leather. So I wear leather
shoes, but I refuse to buy a
lambskin jacket.
If this strikes you
as a hollow rationalization,
you’re probably right.
It has some sort of basis
in rules for Buddhist monks and
nuns, who beg for food. A monk
can eat meat if it’s put in
his bowl–but not if the animal
is slaughtered for his sake.
If the animal would have died
whether or not you were to
be fed, you can eat the flesh;
if it died so that you would
be fed, you cannot.
As to the bags themselves,
there seems no way to humidify
a flute in one of them,
which doesn’t seem so
helpful. Best
Those are good points… Didn’t consider that.
M
I thought I had read somewhere that cattle raised for beef were not used for leather, and vice versa. So any leather product, including shoes, involves the slaughter of an animal for a non-food use.
I’m not sure if the same thing applies to lamb.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m breaking in some new calfskin drumheads.
Just to carry this a step further, when I began piping many years ago the Highland Bagpipes all used animal skin for the bag. This had to be seasoned regularly with a very offensive goop and the bag just smelled and felt offensive. Then along came the canmore sythetic bag and now the Ross synthetic bag and most, if not all, the big pipe bands have switched to the synthetic. I would not switch from the Ross synthetic for anything now. In my not so tactful way, I was trying to say that we live in a more enlightened age and we are, some of us, on our way to becoming civilized. Part of that state of being civilized is that we have a duty to avoid violence and suffering if we can. If, in the process, we find a better product to promote our love of music and things musical, so much the better. (same goes for wallets, shoes, belts and purses, but that is chat for another board.
peace, mercy and compassion.
Best Regards.
Oh, did not see that comment. Well, I have been there to see the terrified look in the eyes of those poor little doomed calves, and to hear their pitiful cries as they are pushed along to the slaughter. Something I will never ever forget as long as I live.
So I suppose you don’t approve of the raw goatskin on my bodhran??? 
It is not my place to approve or disapprove of what you do or have. That is your burden to bear.
This is an interesting topic. I grew up knowing where most of my meat came from (my grandfather’s farm to be more specific). My grandfather was a Missouri farmer with a small 400 acre spread. He also used the hides for leather - nothing was wasted. Corporate farming really is disturbing.
Anyone else here have a problem with old growth woods being used for flutes? I’m talking all the classics like Rosewood, blackwood, cocus - all old growth tropical woods.
I guess we all have our causes we support.
nope, no real problem with that. Wood is wood and has, the last time I looked, no central nervous system. Does not cry and scream with pain. And, before anyone starts, don’t give me that stuff about plants screaming in pain. Use your brains a little and you will determine why that is not the case.
Anyway, the only problem I have with the use of the old growth wood is that it may not be replenished as it should be and overpopulation and scalping of the environment are destroying the resource.
Piper7,
it’s not the pain of a plant or tree, but the destruction of the ecosystem and death of so many animals associated with the clear cutting used in the vast, vast majority of tropical hardwood cutting. Plus, the destruction of beauty that takes centuries to grow.
Check out the population of the lowland gorilla, falling & endangered. The newly recognized subspecies of African Forest Elephant, again falling and endangered. The bonobo, the same. I could go on all day, and all of these are much more highly aware and cognizant of their destruction and the destruction of their world than cattle are. All these species are primarily endangered because of the destruction of their habitat through logging and clear cutting for farming - both of which go hand in hand.
You see, I have thought about this.
Jim, that’s discouraging news, of course;
but I don’t understand, really.
What happens to the hides of
the cattle we slaughter for food?
Why not make money off 'em?
Yes, I’ve seen animals slaughtered,
lots of em, and it’s bad news.
Pigs, especially, feel about
it pretty much as I would.
And factory farming of animals
is very bad, too.
I had heard that there is lots
of blackwood, but that the trees
are often gnarled as the result
of fires used in clearing lands,
so many of them aren’t suitable
for instruments. This may be another
self-serving story, of course!
Mary,
Feel free to drop me an e-mail about leather cases. I done a little bit of leather work from time to time.
After Piper7 comparing leather work to Nazi’s I find I have no desire to participate further in this topic’s discussion.
Lee Marsh.
Maybe the question he has
raised isn’t such a bad
one. We treat non-human animals
as we would not treat members
of our own species. The
question is what is it
about them that justifies
this? What is it about them
that deprives them of the
right to the good treatment
human beings enjoy? Isn’t
it just that we are more
powerful than they? We
wouldn’t use the hide
of a severely retarded
child to make a coat;
why isn’t it just as
bad to use the hide
of a more clever creature,
a pig say, for the same
purpose?
There certainly have been people
who thought that certain
classes of human beings were
fair game, blacks, Jews…
and treated them in ways
we condemn. Well, what makes
the treatment of non-human
animals better? Why is excluding
them from our moral community
any better than excluding
minorities, Jews, whomever?
What about them justifies
the exclusion, other than
that they are powerless
and exploiting them is
useful to us?
Jeremy Bentham put the
point the way: ‘The question
isn’t can they think or
read or reason, but
can they suffer?’
Not an easy question to
answer, I’m afraid.
I find myself in the awkward position of agreeing with Piper7, re unnecessary leather goods, as well as Jayhawk, re clear-cutting, which is ultimately more damaging to animals and human animals alike than the leather trade.
However, since this is a flute forum, perhaps we could keep our personal moral beliefs down to either a short sentiment or abstinence from the offending thread. Given that C&F is supported by groups that share these same sentiments (see the clickable sites as you enter, and by all means, click on them), a large percentage of us on this forum probably agree, to some extent or other, with these sentiments already.
If I may add this thought,
I was often a spokesperson
on picket lines during the
civil rights movement, and
so I got to talk to lots
of racists and segregationists.
Often they were good, kindly
intelligent people who had a blind spot–
they just couldn’t see black
folk as fellow human beings
who mattered in the way
white people did.
I realized something: I might
have my own blind spots.
And so I resolved the following:
someday somebody may come up
to me and insist that the treatment
of animals or fetuses or whatever
it may be is wicked.
And it will seem ridiculous to me
on its face, and this person
some sort of flake and agitator.
And then (I resolved)
the red lights will
go on and I will listen to him,
and I will think about it
and I will take it seriously…
He may be wrong but I will
not dismiss him or rest until
I understand why he is wrong.
So I’ve lived that way, and
oh my goodness has it got
me into trouble! Best
We have all patiently read the feelings of many on leather products and the animals associated with them. I accept all of their feelings.
And now I would appreciate the other side of the coin from users of leather cases for flutes: is there a positive and/or down side to using leather products as cases for wooden flutes? Since this is a flute forum also I would like some responses on that side of the coin.
Thanx, BillG
As I stated earlier, I do find this an interesting topic, and I’m glad Piper7 has thought through the leather/meat issue. I wasn’t ever meaning not to give credence to his opinions, even if I didn’t agree with how it was worded, but stylistic differences are a fact of life.
I’ll dive into the animal rights issue here so I can lay myself in the line of fire as much as everyone else here has. I’d like to think I’m a supporter of animal rights, but I’m neither a vegetarian nor believe all animals should be “liberated” from captivity.
On pets & “unliberated” animals. I look at my 2 dogs, see their happy faces, and can’t imagine them living wild (with about 7 billion other newly liberated pet dogs). First off, even if trained to hunt, they would starve if all those other dogs were liberated, too. We have way more pet animals than the ecosystem could handle if they were released. Plus, many of our pet and livestock animals are not native to the areas they now live in, so we would destroy much of the ecosystem “freeing” them. I can’t even imagine how many cattle, sheep, hogs and chickens would run rampant on the world if they were set free.
As for vegetarianism, I have considered this as an option many times, but I’m not convinced it’s my biological heritage and that my body has truly moved beyond the need for meat. I know it can be done, but a huge amount of what’s eaten to be vegan seems manufactured and unnatural to me. I DO feel bad about eating animals, especially pigs which are much smarter than I like to think about, but I’ve also read that the habitat destruction from farming, even organic farming, destroys more animals per square acre than free range livestock (where the little critters can live in harmony with my future meal).
If I had my choice, I’d eat only free range livestock and eat organic veggies (not perfect as per above, but better than chemicals in our groundwater), but here is the blantantly honest part, I can’t afford to do so. We’re a one income family of 3, my wife stays home with my son, and even so we only have one car (35 mpg, too) and live in a small 2 bedroom home. I eat organic and free range livestock when I can afford it, but often I turn to mass produced foods because it’s what I can afford.
As for the wood flute topic I raised, I’m not against the wood per se, but more against how much of the wood is harvested. I know that there are places were hardwoods are selectively cut, and if I ever decide on a hardwood flute that’s what I’d try to find out about from the maker. Right now, I love my Dixon, and if I decide on a keyed flute, I’m leaning towards M&E. Now, that raises the petroleum issue…
The above is all my opinion. I have no desire to convince anyone - just to state why I live the way I do. Like I said before, I like threads like this, because no matter what decision each of us makes, the important thing is we think it through.
Bill - you have a good point, but unfortunately I was typing when you posted. I, too, would like to know if anyone has a leather flute case. They look nice, and for me they would be a good option since there is no worry about my flute breaking.