The languages and the geographical proximities meant that these countries have always had close ties. Breton-speakers and Welsh-speakers can understand each other with a bit of effort (I’ve seen this happen) and Irish and Scots Gaelic are very close to each other. There’s a long tradition of itinerant Bretons in Wales, for instance.
I was just playing around with the language definition. I agree that Celtic music is a marketing ploy. In fact, the characteristic of “Celtic music” is specifically an Irish influence, rather than some hodge-podge of music from the Celtic countries, I would say. On the other hand, I actually quite like the idea of Galicia being a Celtic country. It says something about the persistence of human culture, and it seems that, simply by Galicians wishing it to be so, Galicia is renewing its Celtic identity. It’s probably tied in to a resistance to Spanish identity.
so when the Breton, Alan Stivell, puts out an LP “Renaissance of the Celtic harp” over thirty years ago (now available Rounder CD 3067) what was meant by “celtic”? he plays a range of Breton, Irish, Scottish and Manx trad on it.
would you have preferred if he called his album “Renaissance of Harp playing Breton, Manx, Scottish and Irish Music”?
and whatever you may say about the differences between the languages under the Celtic linguistic grouping they will all share certain fundamental characteristics that mark them apart from other Indo_European languages. This may have to do with core syntax, cadences and the like.
You can hear that Romanian, Italian and Portuguese belong to the Romance group - you can hear the similar MUSIC in them.
I cannot speak any of the Celtic languages but I sure know when I hear one them that it isn’t German, Hindi, Bengali, Greek or Spanish which a re all indo-euro languages.
I think what’s happened musically is that the term “Celtic” has been hijacked. It’s quite legitimate for someone to refer to a CD that includes music from various Celtic cultures as “Celtic,” but anymore it seems to be used almost exclusively for that new agey stuff…or to promote people from Celtic cultures who DON’T perform in a traditional style (think “Celtic tenors” or those gawd-awful “Celtic Women”).
One thing that irks my Welsh friend is that Americans especially seem to associate “Celtic” exclusively with Ireland (and sometimes a little bit with Scotland)…when they refer to music or art as “Celtic”, it’s typically Irish they mean.
well its that “legitimate” reference that i thought the topic was about and thats why I made an attempt to offer a discussion point definition (see my 1st post here) because my associations on the term celtic music hasn’t yet been hijacked by the pop usage. thanx for the courtesy of your response Redwolf. I know you play harp and I like that.
I was just thinking about Alan Stivell. Perhaps The Renaissance of the Celtic Harp was the beginning of the designation Celtic music. He released it in 1971. Apparently he released an EP of Irish music in the late 50s. I’ve heard that the music scene was really booming in Brittany in the late 60s, early 70s.
I’m quite willing to say that I like Celtic music. I listen to a lot of Welsh music and Irish music, not so much Scottish music, but still a fair amount, and I’ve been exploring Breton music recently.
THE FOOTBA TEAM Hail Hail The Bhoys
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam
PS This topic is a bit awry,given that most of the music played in the traditonal format was heavily influenced by just about every country within hearing and dancing distance.Jigs(Giga) Polkas Mazurka Waltzes etc etc
And the instruments are mostly pan-European too, and surely many of the ornamental techniques in Irish music derive from the baroque, which was certainly a strong influence on Welsh music, where counterpoint has an important part, and the Welsh triple harp was originally a baroque instrument. But I don’t think that rules out an identity for Celtic music in itself. Anyway, I’m just enjoying exploring the subject.
What about English music? Surely much of Scottish and Welsh traditional music has a lot in common with English music? And does Breton music have more in common with French music than with the music of the other Celtic countries?
Just to be contentious, “Celtic” music also has influences from all over the place, so this surely places it in the direct line of the tradition, n’est ce pas?
The Glasgow football team is “seltic.” There is no other acceptable pronunciation of this word, as in all other contexts bar none it should be avoided like the plague.
As I continue to argue with myself: what about Latin American music? Does this exist as an entity? Or Eastern European music? Or Scandinavian music? Or Indian music, etc.? Why are these designations any different to Celtic music?
The usual objection has been stated, but I’ll repeat it: the word “Celtic” has been suborned in popular culture by a new-agey, airy-fairy, mysticalicious aesthetic to such a pass that it no longer means musically (or otherwise, for that matter) what it ought to: that is, simply, referring to nothing more than cultures that speak or used to speak Celtic languages: the Irish, Scots, Welsh, Bretons, Galicians, and the Manx and Cornish, too.
That’s why the knee-jerk reaction. When I tell people I play Irish Trad, I have learned to be prepared for someone to gush about Loreena McKennitt, for example. Fair play to her, but her music ain’t Trad. It’s “Celtic” in the new, popular sense.
And if people think that makes me a snob, they should think again. It just means I shy away from the term “Celtic” except among my own fellow Tradsters so as to avoid confusion.
and so because the pop major may think that Indian means you jump out of a bed of nails in the morning and tie your turban and do bhangra exercises before a hearty breakfast of semolina halva and ganges water
and
Nepalese means you live in a house atop a mountain and you peel your apple with a khukri
I should dispense with describing my ancestry as Indo-Nepalese?
You’re tripping up over yourself. Whilst I agree with your airy-fairy, etc. bit, the use of “celtic” to refer to those languages you list has no more meaning than it does than when it’s applied to traditional music. The allusion is just as airy-fairy.
Heheh. I assume you mean “pasty.” If you’re ever in Padstow I’ll show you where to buy a super pasty. All very intriguing, but what I’m driving at is that the word has become useless because of misuse or hijacking, and we should aim for greater precision when discussing the various musics and languages that scoundrels put into the “celtic” category, either through their cloudy thinking or because of their need to jump on a commercial bandwagon. I have yet to meet a denizen of these parts who would care to proclaim that they’re celtic and proud of it. It’s merely something that the tackier variety of gift shops and craft stalls cash in on.
I explained it in the post just up from yours. The word has forfeited whatever application it had (tenuous to say the least) both to music and languages by dint of its regular misuse either by new-age types (wearisome folks to say the least) or by commercial bandwagonistas. There are no “celtic peoples” in any case, and never were. 'Tis a romantic notion of no substance. I am listed elsewhere on the internet in a “celtic harmonica discography.” Aarrgh.
