Does anyone here play the Welsh Bagpipes?
I strongly doubt, that - historically speaking - anything like a distinctive Welsh type of bagpipes ever existed… 
I´m agree with Celtpastor: It´s possible to find a properly welsh bagpipe?? I ask this because the chanters in museums are the same instrument that you found in Africa, Spain, India, Slovakia…etc
The major part of countrys had a double single-reed chanter with horn bells.
So for say “we have a particular and owm bagpipe” I think we must have more than two chanters in a Museum and carvings in church: We must have a distintive characteristic in the bagpipe, a Tradition (It means a certain quantity of people who plays this bagpipe), and a properly bagpipe repertorie.
About welsh bagpipe, I´m sure the welsh shepherds played the double-single reed chanter with horn bells as a distraction (like another countrys), but if one day was a Live Tradition of this instrument, the tradition is lost.
A different thing is the REVIVAL: you take some information of the past and make a “new” instrument based on this information. But this is NOT a traditional instrument, is a NEW CREATION.
So say “play welsh bagpipe” today, maybe means “play a new bagpipe made with the desire of build a tradition now”. No historical past in this deal.
My knowledge on the history or existance of a Welsh Bagpipe is zero.
I was asked by a piper in America if I played the Welsh bagpipes. I had never known that there was a bagpipe connected to Wales.
I had associated the bagpipes with the Goidelic Celts and Bretons but not with the other Brythonic Celts.
So I was curious to see if there was anyone that could shed some historical facts on whether there was a traditional bagpipe of Wales.
Since we have paintings and carvings of bagpipes in Wales, there’s no reason to doubt, that bagpipes existed there (I know the HP 
). However - we do find the same types of pictures wit doublechantered pipes in other parts of England Cornwall as well, the singlechantered pipes even anywhere in Europe!
The doublechenter dated “1701” looks so incredibly identical to northern African instruments (existing there for a millenium at least!), that it’s a lot more probable, a sailor brought it there as a souvenir (I wouldn’t be too sure about the dating either…).
As for the other artefact - doesn’t it rather look like part of a traditional Pybgorn than a pipe-chanter?
Bringing that together with the fact, that in all of Wales these are the only signs of a “Welsh” type of bagpipe, I don’t think it ever existed. Western European type, similar to Breton Veuze or Spanish Gaitas? Sure! English doublechantered pipes, like the Cornish type (, which might be a fiction, too - there’s a great book about it: “Cornish bagpipes - fact or fiction?”)? Maybe. Distinct Welsh type of pipes? Highly improbable…
Anyway - the modern instruments offered look and sound nice! 
Iv e heard pretty much all these type of thoughts beofre,
Is it? isnt it? what is? why not? etc, etc, etc
dosent seem to mean a pile of beans anymore.
This chap is convinced he’s playing Welsh pipes,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34O9j6Xpjlw
So 's this guy,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikGp9Cxb6AM
here;s a guy playing a veuze (yeh.. pretty sure..)with a cornish flag attached to drone, calling them cornish,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJGilQUWsbc
Barnaby however, seems to favor the great northern triple pipe revival
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRA047WUq6E
Julian Goodacre seems to have the cornish double pipe idea sorted out just fine,
(no vid, sorry)
Then again, one could always just play ‘Ar Hyd Y Nos’, or ‘Hyfrydol’ on the GHB…
In fact I remeber a folkgroup that conscripted a ‘folk oboist’ to add relism to their Welsh-flavoured repretoire…
…that’s show biz!
gotta love it 
I do!
_here;s a guy playing a veuze (yeh.. pretty sure..)with a cornish flag attached to drone, calling them cornish,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJGilQUWsbc_
Believe me, it´s a Galician Gaita, not a Veuze 
Oh I believe you !
That makes it all the more humorous for him to say its ‘Cornish’
but that’s show biz. 
I heard Galicians boast about from how many celtic tribes people came to Galicia within the centuries - there MUST have been some Cornish as well - so it’s a Cornish pipe allright! And a WELSH as well (q.e.d.).
There have been some Suebian tribes coming into Galicia over a millenium ago as well - so, actually, in Suebia (Schwaben), Southern Germany, in ALL EARNEST they “reconstructed” a “traditional Suebian bagpipe” based on the Galician Gaita by a Galician maker!
It’s all a show, isn’t it… 
There have been some Suebian tribes coming into Galicia over a millenium ago as well - so, actually, in Suebia (Schwaben), Southern Germany, in ALL EARNEST they “reconstructed” a “traditional Suebian bagpipe” based on the Galician Gaita by a Galician maker!
You are talking about Sito Carracedo? I´m sure he is the maker.
You could say that about many ‘National’ musical instruments, of course. It’d be true to say that the veuze and the gaita are basically the same, and it’s also true to say that similar instruments, with conical bores and double reeds, have been played in other parts of the world. Many instruments have cousins, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers all over the place. Which came first? Where? When? We could try to argue for a ‘birthplace’ of our choice, but that’s going to be difficult to prove. There’s little incontrovertible evidence as far as origins go. I’ve seen Eastern European ‘pibgyrn’ or near as dammit. Chicken, egg… egg, chicken…
So. Yes, there have been Welsh bagpipes. Of course there have. John Tose has some evidence on his website, which you may already have perused if you followed Celtaidd’s link, and there’s more. We have iconographical evidence from churches and manuscripts, as well as a fair few references from other texts, including poetic references from the Middle Ages and beyond. Then there are references to pibgyrn AND bagpipes in musical treatises from the C18ish. I’m away from home at the moment and so can’t give more details but a few things stick in the mind.
‘Pipes’ are mentioned in the Laws of Hywel Dda as being the instruments of the Pencerdd or Chief Musician at the King’s Court. Doesn’t say which type of pipes, mind, so could be flutes or rec*rder/whistle or even pibgorn, but there’s other mediaeval evidence to confirm that bagpipes were played in the Wales of the Middle Ages. ‘Pipes’ were played in the first Eisteddfod, held at Christmas 1176 by the Arglwydd Rhys in Cardigan - and we know there were Breton musicians there, interestingly enough.
There’s a poem about Carmarthen from the C16/17 (I think) which goes something like
‘A’r bacbib sydd mwya’n canu
Ym mhriodasau mwyaf Cymru’
And the bagpipe which is played in the biggest weddings in Wales.
My memory not being great, can’t remember any more poetry… Then, D. Rhys Philips in his ‘History of the Vale of Neath’ from the first half of the C20 mentions the bagpipes being played in , erm, the Vale of Neath in the middle of the C19. Then, earlier still, Theophilus Jones in his C18th ‘History of Brecknock’ mentions a piper who used to play for horseback weddings. Interestingly, this is mentioned in the context of his absence - old Edward of Gwern y Pebydd has died, and so the ‘wild music’ of his pipes will be heard no more.
The last Welsh piper we know of for certain was Evan Gethin from Blaen Cwmtawe, in the mid C19. Blaen Cwmtawe is just up the Tawe valley (north of Swansea) from me, and not too far from the area in which Edward Gwern y Pebydd played. I have a recollection of another mention of horseback weddings around the same time in a book called ‘Eine Herbst in Wales’ (sp?), written by a German, I think. He talks of such a wedding in the Penmaenmawr area (I think) but I also seem to remember that his veracity as a witness has been called into question. Perhaps he’d heard of such occasions and included on in his account to add a little colour. There are also accounts of a piper playing in Llanrwst in the Conwy Valley in the late C19th but it’s thought likely that they were GHB’s.
This is aside from references to pibgyrn. Yes, it’s likely that the double chanter-thingy alluded to above is indeed north African. The other pibgyrn aren’t. The Rev’d Meredith Morris accounted himself the last, or one of the last, players of the pibgorn in the early C20. I seem to remember that he said he was ‘tolerable’ at it.
What pipes did Edward and Evan and their ancestors play? Dunno. I suspect that it’s likely that they were conical bore and had a single drone, but maybe they were on the ‘pibau-cyrn’ pattern, with a pibgorn chanter? Whatever, they played some sort of pipes. SO… Welsh pipes died out. Certainly. They’ve been ‘revived’. Certainly true. No historical past? Nope!
Now, I play a set of ‘pibau-cyrn’ or ‘bag-hornpipe’ made by John Glennydd of Llanfihangel ar Arth. I’ll try to work out how to post a picture. Single drone, pibgorn chanter, single reeds. The reeds are synthetic at the moment but I’m going to get a set of cane reeds from Ceri Rhys Matthews in a week or two. They play an octave in D (as do most of modern ‘Welsh’ pipes) with some cross-fingering possibilities. I’ll see if I can work out how to post a sound sample too.
John Tose makes pibau-cyrn and veuze-type pipes, including a double-chantered version he had at the Blowout last year, based on a carving from Llanelidan. A number of us in Wales are also playing Galician Gaitas nowadays too. Seivane have developed a ‘Welsh’ version of their gaita, believe it or not, but its still basically a gaita 
I have a Seivane gaita too, on which I play Welsh music. I know, it’s cheeky, people will be playing non-Spanish music on guitars next, it’s shocking…
I KNEW, Galicians were Welsh as well! I KNEW it!!!
However - there’s proof of bagpipes having existed in Wales - which I mentioned above as well - and we do have the iconography - which I mentioned above as well as well .
However - the iconography doesn’t differ in any detail known to me from those pictures and carvings found outside Wales from the same time. The fragments of doublechanters can easily be explained as parts of - doubtlessly historically existant (as I mentioned… - oh, nevermind… ) Pibgyrn. The only thing pointing to a “Welsh bagpipe” differing from those elsewhere in Britain (or Brittany, for that matter) is that probably Northafrican fragment.
All of this makes it highly probable, that the modern “reconstructions” of Welsh bagpipes are, in the best case, inspired by iconography of historic British pipes that had been played in Wales at some time as well. Still can’t see a single proof, “Welsh” bagpipes - differing from other British pipes in whatever detail - are more than a fiction…
By the way, revivals don’t necessarily do the right thing, either. Look at the Irish harp. There are a number of perfectly well preserved real medieval Irish harps around. So what do the revivalists do? They go and make a totally different kind of harp, with a totally different technique, sound, in fact everything, and call it the Irish revival harp. And that in spite of the fact that, for once, you CAN go to a number of museums and see for yourself that it is a bogus.
Welll, your Reverence, I never claimed that the examples shown in Welsh iconography are much different from other examples shown in iconography elsewhere. For example I didn’t mention that picture of a (presumably Iberian) bagpipe with a horned chanter from the Cantigas, for example, which just reinforces my point.
‘However - the iconography doesn’t differ in any detail known to me from those pictures and carvings found outside Wales from the same time.’
Exactly! And the same goes for those other pipes ffrom other parts of the world. There were Welsh bagpipes, as they were bagpipes played in Wales. Some pipes played in Wales more than likely belonged to the veuze/gaita family and took a slightly different ‘Welsh’ form, just as the gaita has taken differing forms in different parts of Iberia. So. These pipes played in Wales were just as much Welsh bagpipes as the gaita is Galician or Asturian, or indeed the GHB’s are Scottish. They were regional manifestations, members of a wider family.
It’s also quite likely that we had ‘pibau-cyrn’ similar to those depicted in that Cantigas MS. So, they again are a regional manifestation of a wider family. No-one has claimed that there’s an unbroken traditon of piping in Wales. In fact, everyone I know who plays the ‘Welsh’ pipes is aware of their background and revival.
Nothing I said denies that they’re revived - I tried to give some context. However, take a step back for a moment. There’s nothing wrong with a ‘revival’, in my view, as long at the revivers are open about where they’re coming from. There’s nothing wrong with creation/invention, either - again, as long as the creators are open and don’t claim some spurious authenticity. Provided that sources and methodology are openly acknowledged, where’s the probem? So. Yes. We DO have Welsh bagpipes now. They’re revived or re-created, they’re members of well-known families, they don’t differ hugely from many pipes around the Globe, but so what? This is hardly uncommon.
Yuri, I assume that when you say that ‘Revivals don’t necessarily do the right things’, I suppose you mean ‘the authentic’ thing? The historically accurate thing? I agree, of course. Again, openness is the key to me. None of the Welsh makers have ever claimed an unbroken lineage for their pipes, and all the makers of Welsh pipes and pibgyrn that I know have researched these instruments carefully and have reasons for what they do. Then, there’s nothing wrong with innovation, provided that it’s acknowledged.
If Hugh Cheape says that, essentially, the uilleann pipes were initally developed in England, does that make their Irish manifestation nowadays any less Irish? The ‘Welsh’ triple harp was invented in Italy, but the only place it continues with unbroken traditions of playing is Wales - so is it Welsh or Italian? Most Italians have probably never heard of it, but a lot of Welsh people know about it. Hey, ‘English’ is spoken outside England… Maybe we should call it something else, when it isn’t spoken within dear old Albion? There must be a more accurate designation…
Now, I used to be very dismissive of people who wore ‘Welsh cilts’. Nowadays, I think they’re ok, a bit of fun. I even wore one myself at Lorient last year (didn’t pay for it though…) As long as people don’t claim a spurious Welsh lineage for the things, that’s fine by me. In fact, thinking about it, Lady Llanover (who was English) did invent a ‘Welsh’ costume for men in the C19, which included a kilt-type thing and it was worn by men connected with her. It never took off (thank goodness) but we can demostrate its historicity, albeit in a finite sort-of way. So, is it legit nwowadays? It’d be over a hundred years old, that’s comparitively venerable… The ‘Scottish’ kilt was invented by an English Ironmaster, so is it really English? Many place names in southern Scotland have demonstrably Welsh origins, so should we stake a claim to Strathclyde. Hmmm. Having said that, what became the ruling family of Gwynedd came down from what we call ‘Yr Hen Ogledd’ - the Old North of what is now southern Scotland, Cumbria etc - so maybe some Glaswegans could stake a claim to become our Royal Family? And why not?
And what, indeed, of trousers?
All a bit complicated really. So much is inter-connected. Chicken, egg… egg, chicken… Now, didn’t chickens start in Asia somewhere? Re-name the Rhode-Island Red!
This is just what I’d question. Not the “wider family”, nor the existance, but the “regional manifestation”-point.
You sound a bit like:
“Since the same type of pipes as played in Wales had been played in England and Brittany as well, the English and Bretons played Welsh pipes!” Allright, if You insist… 
But that would be like saying: “Some Welsh play GHB - so the GHB is a Welsh pipe, being played in Scotland by accident…” That doesn’t reall make sense… 
You also say
Why? In the Basque-country e.g., there’s the Alboka, very similar to Pibgorn. No-one ever reported a case of that one tied into a bag for playing. Even, if one or two people did, it was their good idea, but it’s not a tradition yet.
There have been English- and veuze-type pipes in Wales for sure - but if e.g. I play some of my pipes (like the nice set Yuri jaust made for me! ) here in Friesland, that doesn’t make them “regional manifestations” yet, and only because a couple of people here play GHB, the GHB is still a GHB and not a traditional Friesian bagpipe! 
There is a revival of Welsh pipemusic allright, and that’s beautiful. But it’s just like the “German medieval bagpipes” - new instruments, nothing traditional, nothing authentic.
I say: The Welsh bagpipe does exist. But as a distinctively Welsh instrument, it’s a modern invention, not a traditional one - which is not wrong, not bad, but just a fact! 
yeh…I like to call them by their familial names rather than their nationalistic ones, ‘double conical chantered’, ‘doubel bore single chantered’, 'conical chanter multi drone bellows blown, etc…" and THEN add a qualifier that they were commonly found in such & such a region, at such & such a time…
but then nobody knows what the hell youre talking about (except other pipers) and you have to throw the causal observer a handle and say it’s Irish, Arabic, Breton, whatever…one of the pitfalls of pipes, imo.
The bagpipe species has a rather fluid organology, kind of like one of these deep sea creatures that light up and grow appendages at whim, morphing into varigated sub species…yaknowwhaddimean?
Not at all. Never said that, of course. Didn’t even suggest it, or come close to it. Come on, now, your Reverence, don’t be naughty…
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There IS some written evidence. We have some evidence of herdsmen ‘playing their pibau cyrn under their arms’, which is some evidence for the pibgorn chanter. You’ll note that I said ‘quite likely’ above. It’s not conclusive but it’s suggestive, at least. However, apart from the the pibgorn chanter, I’m sure that we have a very good case for a conical bore-single chantered pipe, at the least.
Nah. Again, I never said that.
Of course, I believe that there were indeed regional manifestations. You see, your Reverence, old Edward Gwern y Pebydd and the boys didn’t get on the internet and order some pipes from Foreign Parts. It’s indeed quite likely that instruments came into Wales from elsewhere, but in that we have evidence over hundreds of years for bagpipes being played in Wales, I think we’re justified in suggesting that there were indeed regional, Welsh, manifestations of the instrument. In fact, it’d be odd to think that, over a considerable period of time, there weren’t Welsh manifestations. They may not have been very different to other types of pipes in the same family/families, but they’d have been a little different, at least. What’s an English-type pipe, anyway? And incidentally, whilst we’ve certainly absorbed many influences from over Offa’s Dyke, there has been some traffic the other way, too, as well as influences from other places. it’s easy to forget that the sea was a highway as much as a barrier to commerce and contact. We’ve ceretainly got a lot of evidence of musical contact between Wales and Ireland in the Middle Ages, for instance, as well as Britanny.
Dear me, Rev… Yes, they’re modern and revived/recreated, but have plenty of historical basis behind them. This is where you’re going wrong… Welsh pipes, distinctively Welsh pipes, almost certainly did exist - close enough for me to think it’s almost undoubtedly so, and I’ve looked into the evidence extensively - and they do again. There was no unbroken tradition, but there was enough evidence to make a stab at RE-creating instruments.
Now put that stick away…
Well, OK - name me the evidence of historical instruments - or pictures of them - that differ from those outside Wales!