An observation on recovered flame threads

(This is me talking without my moderator hat on – just something to consider, not something I’m demanding.)

While we’ve demonstrated ourselves to be very good at taking hostile or inflammatory threads and turning them into surreal giggle-fests by page 5 or 10 or so, there’s a side-effect of that we might want to keep in mind.

When those threads are continued, they stay up at the top of the index. That means that new people to the board will see those first. Of course, new people to the board will start reading threads at page one, not page 10 – so even though the inflammatory bits appear to all be over, it sure looks like this place is a flamefest.

Just something to keep in mind when continuing those threads – no rules involved. :slight_smile:

    -Rich

Good point Rich. “It’s sickening” started as an issue an turned into fun, but to someone new to the board it looks like 32 pages of sickeningness :frowning:

That means it would be better to continue it as a new thread titled, “It’s Sickening PtII” or “Return of the It’s Sickening” or “Son of It’s Sickening” or “Bride of It’s Sickening”

Ask if you want any more suggestions. And let’s bring back some technocrap.
Tony

Rich:
How about dumping OTs and Flame threads after a while? I cruise the Forum looking for specific whistle, music info etc. There are 51 pages of Forums as you well know.
I know that I can use the search window but human diversity being what it is, I see things I hadn’t even thought of when I actually look through the Forum and I enjoy it for that reason. The flame wars are of no lasting interest though.
It’s funny – there is a sameness about Forums and these flame things. You start off on a topic that we’re all interested in, people start to metaphorically “camp out” become proprietary then the insults fly. I was on the Quaker-Roots list (a genealogy forum for practicing and ancestral Quakers etc) and I could swear some of the same people are on this Forum based on the color and language of the messages.
You may throw this message away after a while…
How about a poll about tossing OTs and Flame wars?
Lance

On 2002-03-20 12:33, The Weekenders wrote:
Rich:
How about dumping OTs and Flame threads after a while?

If people aren’t posting to them, then they disappear into page 2 and beyond. If people are posting to them, dumping them is inappropriate, because evidently people want to use them.

I’m very uncomfortable judging the value of a topic or post, which is why I made the post at the top of the thread as a participant, not a moderator.

    -Rich

Instead of dumping the flaming thread is it possible to modify the original post’s topic to reflect the mutation?

Rich, is there any way to rename the “Its Sickening” thread – its no longer sickening but it will never die :wink:

Oops, somebody just mentioned that … too much caffeine and its only noon …sigh

[ This Message was edited by: garycrosby on 2002-03-20 13:18 ]

The person that started the thread “owns” the title of the thread. A moderator editing that isn’t far off from editing the content of a post because people don’t like it, so while I’m technically able to, I’m not going to.

(Also, given the content of the first part of that thread, I think it would be particularly inappropriate to change it.)

    -Rich

I agree with your point Rich and would like to add something. Okay so folks are having fun with their “gigglefest”. However (as I tried to point out in another thread) the constant appearance of the thread title also serves as a reminder of a lot of negativity that, IMHO, is best left in the past so we can more easily move on.

Cheers,
David

P.S. An afterthought: Perhaps the crowd enjoying the perpetual thread could start a new one from scratch, “The thread that will never die!”.

Oops, I see Tony suggested something similar but personally I could do without the “It’s Sickening” sequel titles. Again these would just be a reminder.

[ This Message was edited by: Feadan on 2002-03-20 15:11 ]

Rich:
After reading your answers, I realize how truly democratic you are about the Forum. I always think of the moderator as more of a controlling force because other Forums are run that way to avoid flame wars.

If its the will of the users to have extensive OT debates, so be it. I admire that you all will host it. I just like learning about Irish music, whistles etc. There is so much conflict in regular life that those strong words like MORON and SICKENING do stand out as others pointed out in this thread.

It is comforting to be able to reach out to others who share my love for this instrument and its great music because its lonely sometimes outside of the metaphoric “pub.”

Thanks to all,
The Weekenders,



[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-05-14 17:27 ]

How’d you get so wise, Rich?

On 2002-03-20 15:13, Anna Martinez wrote:
How’d you get so wise, Rich?

Whistle-playing, silly. :slight_smile:

    -Rich

The problem with renaming thread is that it modifies history (how very Orwellian :slight_smile:) which is a loss, I think, so rich is right on, there.

I actually don’t have a huge problem (or really any problem) with the “It’s Sickening” thread; it seems to have become a rather nice thread to hang out in.

More seriously, this board seems to be a community of people who like whistles, not a discussion list about whistles. For better or for worse, it’s what it is, and it would take some serious re-engineering of our culture to make it otherwise. The objection that it may give people a false impression of us is possibly not true, as an unaltered board is the real impression of us. What was said, and how it was said. I think people are probably prepared to open the book before being too put off by its cover.

When people are tired of a thread, it naturally dies; I guess I would just let nature take its course. That said, I don’t think “It’s sickening” will die any time soon.

Richard

Actually, I can’t even remember what the Sickening thread is about, yet I have posted on it. JP

(I sure have been editing a lot, lately. It must be these tiny letters)

[ This Message was edited by: JohnPalmer on 2002-03-20 17:26 ]

(I sure have been editing a lot, lately. It must be these tiny letters)

Must be your eyes!

    -Rich

When I started this message Rich had not written his but I think it is the right place to post it…

Hello, this is Brigitte here. I just want to make clear beforehand, this message is NOT intended to offend anyone or to personally attack someone. Also I ask the reader to please bear in mind that I may have used a word wrongly as it is not my native language here so please do not jump on me, just ask me if something is not clear. I have thought long and hard about this message (especially as some people nowadays might only see me “with the whistle maker’s wife’s hat on) and if I could send it but being so long on the board since the beginning of C&F, only being myself and nobody’s girlfriend or wife I am sure I can tell you. I wrote, read and re-wrote it again and again and hope I can make my thoughts clear enough for easy digesting. I would like to contribute the following to the board on which I feel at home for many years now but have had very uncomfortable times in the last few months. So here I’ll walk on thin ice and again hope it will not break. I probably have to add I always have in mind that this is “A whistler’s board” although my message may not mention this fact often below.

The last three months the board has turned dramatically in vibes. It also has grown tremendously by new members as it has not done in the 4 years before altogether. I like to make you aware that there are 906 logged contributors and a few thousand newsletter receivers now. We have had a growing rate of +50%!!! since the 16th of December 2001 on the board. This IS great but too fast for growing of groups often leads into communication problems as we have seen recently. Regarding the recent big growth I would like to state that the different levels of “collective board knowledge” in our community does vary quite a lot, the archive can help catching up and the mentioned FAQ in another thread, if it is going to be a project, I think will be also a good tool to balance out the different knowledge level of members. (BTW Rich, thanks to the statistics, archive and search functions… ehm and the space itself!)

As natural with human beings there comes a point when the amount of people (here contributors) meets what I would call the “social peace limit” (I do not know what ethnological scientists call it in English). When reaching this amount of members (which is still provable in native tribes i.e in the Amazon region) usually (bloody!) fights start and in the end the tribe splits in half and separates so the new tribes get again to their comfortable limit of members etc. In our group as we already found out this does not work as “there is nowhere else to go to for a whistler” than Dale’s place and a great place it is, too. BTW during the last months when I sat head shaking in front of my computer screen on what was happening I started to wonder a few times if the whole board might be an experimental project “Dale’s psychological test field in mass dynamic laws” :wink: (oh..well Dale, I thought I better be honest here, I know it is the crystal people in fact who are leading you). Ever looked from this point of view when the debates got really hot? It can make it all look pretty different and helps clearing the head again.


In all these years there have been discussions held on the board regarding beliefs, ethics and morals but as the group was still quite small compared to the message board or the newsletter subscribers we have today, it did not escalate in anything close to the state as it did in the last few months. When the group is smaller there tends to be a bigger chance that a contributor can explain themselves better and react/correct faster. When in a bigger group a misunderstanding comes up it can escalate as quick as another contributor who also may have misunderstood jumped in before the originator of the misunderstanding is able too explain better and fast we are in the defending/offending circle. Also when a group is small there usually are less different or new characters to cope with and it is easier to keep track in the special ways some people explain themselves. Since the community has grown so fast it feels much harder for me to keep track where one or the other contributor is coming from and I find myself checking profiles more often to refresh my image of the person than I had to do a year ago. Do you do this occasionally, just a question I thought to bring in mind?

Some of the people I interact with on a regular base, at some point I like to get to know them better. The contributors on the board always did/do the same, some tell about their upcoming gigs, new CDs, animals, work etc. After the surface knowledge there is the urge to get some deeper insights. As this is a multi-cultural forum the subjects in question then can mutate to what I would call “juggling some hot cobble stones around” and we usually do not know beforehand what “top gets lifted from the pot” when we start asking questions about religion, ethics and morals nevertheless we have juggled them around here intensively on board and off board on all levels and some hard clashes on all levels have happened. Some of us got burned when outing themselves in giving basic statements and others by reading them. Both sides with a high possibility of being hurt by getting asked these questions in the first place or by reading the unexpected (but probably honest) answer. What one sends out as a protection the other can perceive it as aggression. This behaviour I think I have seen recently a lot on the board…. people asking, people answering, people replying, some misunderstanding, some hurt (maybe because they put a shoe on someone laid out for someone else which did not fit them). Sometimes during the long debates on threads I started wondering if some contributors really/still knew what started the thread and where the debate was coming from or leading to.

Well, a long message and most probably time to go and what did I really want to tell you? Well…? it took me two days each a few hours to get here. I could possibly carry on for another couple of days but thought you might like to go to bed at some point, I have to very soon now. I do not want nor can I present a formula for the board or something like this. I wrote just a few of the thoughts which have come up in the last weeks and did not let myself loose when following the threads. I thought best I let you know about it in the hope it might be something to chew on as well. There is no answer here, so probably I should not post it because of this? I will as I think it should not be wasted time only for my personal insight :slight_smile: I have seen a lot of these long messages over the years written by lots of others C&Flers, never really realising how long it can take on “thin ice”. I now can even more appreciate their presence on the board and the personal time they took to contribute their knowledge. I have seen many many honest opinions about instruments, musicians and “god and the world” over the years and would not like to have missed them just because they might have had to be afraid that honesty is not wanted if the rest of the text is not 100% clear. In a hurry or hot debate one usually does not re-think every word as often as I did in my email and I still cannot be sure that “I did not step on someones foot”. In fast times we might need to re/act a little bit slower with a little bit more tolerance which comes automatically from a little bit more knowledge.

Wish you all a good night
Brigitte


edited as I was missing the smilies I had in my word text… good morning :slight_smile: Brigitte

[ This Message was edited by: goldie on 2002-03-21 03:38 ]

[I deleted my post 60 seconds after I posted it - what I was going to say was better left unsaid.]

[ This Message was edited by: garycrosby on 2002-03-20 18:42 ]

I think we’ll muddle through–civil
is better than otherwise, of course.
Fewer repercussions. I’ve watched
the board for years. Everything on it
passes sooner or later.

Ol Man River, Dat Ol Man River…

On 2002-03-20 15:53, rich wrote:

On 2002-03-20 15:13, Anna Martinez wrote:
How’d you get so wise, Rich?

Whistle-playing, silly. > :slight_smile:

    -Rich

That’s oxygen hunger, not wisdom.

Although he IS wise.

D. Wisely

Brigitte,

There’s a lot of good food for thought in your post - so much that it’s probably beyond the limited attention span of most of us to attempt a reply. However I found your observations about the expansion of groups and the “social peace limit”, likening us to a tribe, most interesting.

As you say though there’s nowhere else to go. Feadan mooted “C&F Level 2” thread but after some discussion canned the idea himself. I think things will settle down and I also think that the combined unintrusive presence of our two moderators (with their oh-so-moderate approach) will ensure that things do not get totally out of hand.

The moderators remind me a bit of the bus conductors on the old-fashioned London buses. I remember many late-Saturday-night rides out of central London on the 73 bus when the atmosphere would be just like a good-humoured party. A lot of people had had a couple of pints and sometimes the banter and repartee and general carry-on among the passengers (who didn’t necessarily know each other) was priceless and incredibly funny. The conductor didn’t have to do anything except be in a benevolent mood, but his presence made everyone feel safe to act the goat a little.

This kind of thing never happened on routes with one-man buses. With no “moderator”, people kept their mouths shut. So there you have it. Messageboards as a London bus.

OK, enough of this nonsense. I just wanted to let Brigitte know that I had read and chewed on what she said.

Steve

PS Hmm. I’ve just realized that if we get fed up there IS somewhere else to go. Thanks to Bob Pegritz for the suggestion!