You’re in what promises to be a lively session with some very respected players and some learners and a mix of instruments, including a couple or more flutes. Now we all know the old tuning cliche, what do call three players in a session? …A chord Anyway, that said, I’m not a bad flute player and I have a nice well-adjusted flute, and I have RTTA software at home, and I know where my slide and cork should be, and I have a fair idea of the extent of my personal tuning error at different air pressures. And I’ll be honest, I can blow a little bit flat sometimes with a very ‘downward’ embouchure. Anyway, there we are all hotting up for a fine old tune and I’m sat next to a fairly well known fluter. We tune up with the box, I play with said box player quite often, who has a fairly wide reed tuning but would always be at concert pitch. There is the usual grimacing of ‘flute faces’ around the room as we all pretend to adjust our tuning slides but knowing exactly where they will end up. And off we go. Said senior flute player breaks off mid tune to grimace some more and after the set announces rather pointedly to the room that ‘someone’ is out of tune. Suffering from flute player’s existential guilt syndrome I usually confess like the Spanish Inquisition in this situation. ‘Is it me?’, even if I’m sure it’s not me. ‘Someone is very sharp in the second octave’ comes the reply. Now, I’m pretty sure that I’m slightly flat til I’ve warmed up a and admit as much, making light of it. But apparently I’m wrong and I’m instructed rather loudly that ‘a session’ is a very different environment fom using a tuner. I meekly confess that I haven’t used a tuner, without confessing that I know what a f***ing session is like! I’m asked how far out my cork adjustment is (19mm). At this point I’m about 10mm on my tuning slide and, with my embouchure and RTTA, I know that even blowing like a crazed loon on a cold flute I would not be able to blow sharp in the second. By contrast, said flutist has his slide so far out that its in danger of falling off (more than inch at least) and every law of physic is yelling that the scale must be stretched out on the upper left hand notes. But there you go, I and the other two fluters defer to authority and we play on. At the end I’m given further public instruction to go and work on my sharp second octave playing and try a tuner. Self doubt gets the better of me and I decide to let it go. Fortunately for my bruised ego the session host leans right across him and thanks me for my mighty flute playing. Perplexing, and although I decided to let it go, fluter’s self doubt always tends to niggle at you and I sit out the next session to listen rather than mess it up. At a later session I’m playing with another flute player who really is sharp, really sharp!, but we have some good old tunes and stories. But that doubt keeps niggling away at me, so its back to the RTTA software, cork adjustments, lip adjustments, blowing like a compressor, and for the life of me I cannot get that first session tune to register as ‘sharp in the second octave’ with my flute set up. All in a day’s work I guess but how do you all deal with it? Does everyone else also admit they’re wrong when they know they’re probably right? Do you all admit to being the one who’s out of tune?
Firstly, yes I’ve had that happen. Several times on flute and once - only once - on fiddle. In the one instance where that happened on fiddle, it was because I’d had too much drink to be able to tell what my tuning was like. The flute instances were not - I don’t play flute if I’ve had more than a couple of pints.
I have some theories - bear with me. The first is that, sometimes, top players really do have a better ear than even those of us with a really great ear, and they can get picky. So maybe something marginal set him off. Secondly, before the flute has warmed up properly, I have noticed that the scale can get stretched - it usually settles down, for me, by the second set.
However, in the case you mention I wonder if something else was at play. Now, I’m only going by my own experience here, and not casting aspersions or anything else. Something happened to me once, and it’s improved my flute playing since. Someone did more or less what you describe, and I thought I was pretty much in tune. (Actually, I still think I was in tune in that instance, and at that point in the evening - I think the person involved was just being mean, deliberately.) It’s what happened next that is interesting. As my confidence sapped (“flute player’s existential guilt syndrome” - I like that ) my embouchure weakened. And then I really was sharp in the second octave. I persevered and got a grip on myself, but it was a really hard thing to do. Is it possible that something like happened? It would never happen in the home with your RTTA because there’s no-one mean around to make you feel guilty and put you off.
As for admitting something that I’m definitely not guilty of, then no, I don’t. But flute tuning is such a paranoia-inducing thing that, yes, I would always think it was me in the circumstances you describe. You only need to get a particularly humid, hot pub and your tuning is going to be way different. All sorts of factors could affect it, so I would always question myself. It doesn’t help that, in hot pub situations, all the flutes naturally go sharp and all the fiddles naturally go flat. and God knows what happens with them there box thingies.
Funny I was just playing a tune along with a piano recording I made and my wife said " are you I the right key? it sounds off"
I know I play in tune but I had just started playing and was not warmed up yet. Even though I know this , its still bothersome lol.
One thing I like to do is play along with a good fiddler on youtube or a recording. I love playing along with Kevin Burke. If I can be in tune with him I know I will do great at a session.
It was just an odd situation and I wouldn’t want to make much of it, although I’m absolutely certain I wasn’t sharp and I thought I was slightly flat. One of the other flutes might have been sharp so there might have been a confusion. I was just interested in how others deal with the sensitivities of session tuning. Whether you laugh it off, or take rap, or ask for advice, or ask a third party to adjudicate
Oh God! I think the worst thing would be to ask a third party. Puts them in a difficult position, and somebody ends up cross. If it’s the “well known fluter” who ends up cross, you lose; if it’s you who ends up cross, you lose. Nope, there has to be some other way than that.
Actually, it sounds to me as if, on the night, you probably handled it about right. No blood was spilled, and the session carried on with nobody getting really out of shape.
I’m sure you’d prefer not to name the ‘senior’ flute player, otherwise you would have already done so. Perhaps you could post a photograph of them instead but still not name them. It sounds like they have a few more problems to face up to than just a badly calibrated ear, be that their own or that of their neighbouring musician(s). If we had a picture we could maybe see whether their ears look to be properly positioned on their head for optimum performance.
People who complain in that manner are unlikely ever to be in tune, musically or otherwise.
I’ve played in fabulous sessions that have occasionally may have been a bit dodgy on the tuning front but have produced fabulous music and a pulsating life and energy, and I’ve played in sessions that were spot-on in tuning and tempo and stylistic correctness but had all the life and vitality of the third hour of a software implementation contract review meeting.
I am not against technical excellence, and I am not in any way suggesting that you shouldn’t be as good as you possibly can be and always strive to be better. The very length and detail of the OP shows that they are not someone who ever thinks ‘ah, that’ll do’. But a session is not a recital, it is not a performance, it is not a recording session, and it is most definitely not a place for seeking perfection at the expense of the flow of the evening.
I’ve no axe to grind with anyone at all, I’m not that consistently good enough to criticise and I may well have been slightly out of tune in the first set. Indeed, I’m pretty sure I was wee bit flat of the box at the time, but your man was flatter The tunes were great. I was just unnerved by the public lecture where a quiet word of encouragement might have served. I guess it was either well meant or there was a little bit of macho rivalry in it I’ll be adopting the preventive approach now and enquiring of the general company whether I’m in tune after the first set, so you can all get your listening ears on
PS. When I say ‘well known’ I mean on the session circuit rather than the elite recording artist scene, great flute player but it wasn’t Matt Molloy
I was just unnerved by the public lecture where a quiet word of encouragement might have served.
I hear you there! Many years, ago, my whistle teacher invited me out to join the “A crowd session”…I hadn’t many tunes at the time…I was playing a newly aquired water weasel D…( I had the set and would like to see them back one day if the person who has worked on them will ever send them back , but I digress) after a set of tunes, the “senior” whistle player/uillean piper threw a tuner across the table, at me, and said “hey, blow into that!” I was mortified and slightly embarrassed…to be honest, I wanted to kick him in the shins…I thought it was very petty and had no place in a session…a little whisper in the ear or a “chat” afterwards would have sufficed…stubborn me has never sat down and played a tune with that man since, and that was 20 something years ago…if a person sees the need to critique another fellow musician, I think the problem would be more theirs than said musician…no need of that, at all, when like minded individual are out to have a few tunes…t’was a lesson learned though and I thank him for that…sure, I didn’t even know what a GD tuner was at the time!!
The term “bully” comes to mind after reading Mark’s post. It is my guess that this “fairly well known fluter,” has exhibited this kind of poor behavior in the past, this is, most likely not an isolated incident. His name or his picture isn’t of the slightest importance; however, what is important is the damage his comments can have upon others. For want of a better, more detailed explanation, they (the bully) seem to validate themselves by intimidating and humiliating others, so that they can feel more important and powerful. This was, after all, a session, where others have come together to enjoy a common interest, to learn from others who are more accomplished and hone their skill set. By the way, this kind of inappropriate behavior never seems to work out well for the bully in the end, as others in the session view him as an insensitive, socially maladjusted individual to be avoided. After all, who sets out to attend a session with the hope in mind of being publicly humiliated? The consequence for the bully isn’t all that pleasant either, as many will recognize him for what he is; the bully seeks importance, acceptance and recognition, but gets just the opposite.
The best way to deal with such a person, in my opinion, is not to push back in an aggressive, mean way, although one might feel justified in doing so, but to approach the “fairly well known fluter” in a private setting and in an assertive fashion let the person know exactly how his behavior impacted you and ask him not to treat you or other session attendees in that way in the future. It might even be mentioned that should he choose to change his approach toward dealing with persons who may be “out of tune,” that he and others might have a better experience and enjoy the session more fully. You might even suggest more appropriate ways (ways that you have already identified in your posts) of managing the situation. If indeed, this individual is a bully (and I’ve made some very broad assumptions that he may well be), the thing that the bully dislikes most is to be confronted on their behavior. Should he choose to dismiss your feelings/thoughts, out of hand, then he has revealed himself for that which he is–an individual to be avoided. Or, you may just simply decide that his behavior is his issue and is not worth your time or effort to attempt to modify. If you choose to attempt to raise this persons level of awareness, remember to be assertive, describe the situation in exact detail and present your thoughts and feelings without rancor.
Mark, I think one of the takeaways from this sad passage, would be that your ‘senior fluter’, as well as Tansey, have shown us just how ‘out of tune’ one can be without playing a note. . .
thanks for sharing, as I say I’ve no axe to grind with anyone myself and no complaint implied. I might have been in the right or wrong, and I’ll pay more attention next time. Clearly we were both worrying about our tuning, which is why I was more interested in the ‘existential guilt’ phenomenon (which I think we all suffer from) and how other fluters manage it in playing situations, session or peformance. Or more generally, how people approach the management of their tuning.
I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with calling out bad tuning. The way it’s done is what matters. There’s really no point in making it a public spectacle but sometimes something needs to be done to correct poor tuning, and do realise poor tuning of one participant can ruin the night for all. But again, there’s no need to do it in a way that puts anyone publicly on the spot.
As far as the ‘existential guilt’ phenomenon goes, fluteplayers have been known to go off a bit, trailing of just below or above the tuning the others are trying to keep to. Fluteplaying is perhaps more physical than playing most other instruments and just feeling tired can wreak havoc with tone and tuning. It’s something I was constantly aware of, to the point of feeling extremely insecure and it eventually made me give up on playing the flute altogether.
That’s quite a telling personal insight Peter and exemplifies the ultimate consequences or managing it or not to one’s own satisfaction The challenge is how to maintain sufficient self awareness, criticality and sensitivity to get it right while maintaining enough realism, thick skin and humility to make it enjoyable. I guess we all steer our own course through it at whatever level or in whatever company we’re playing.
A similar challenge when teaching, or acting as a session host, how much to focus on others’ tuning and how to get the best out of everyone? (vested interest here as I also teach occasional group workshops on whistle/flute and help facilitate a regular tune learning slow session, as well as jointly hosting a session). I’ve seen others become very discouraged by their growing self-awareness of inconsistent tuning but if they’re aware of it then that’s half the battle. I also recognise that it can really grate with everyone if someone is badly out and there’s no chance of correcting it.
If you run some of the best solo flute recordings (modern or historic) through RTTA the results are often revealing. I think Peter Horan would’ve just pushed the tuning slide full in and be damned! Cath McEvoy doesn’t have a tuning slide yet she’s masterfully adept. Horses for courses.
Sorry you gave up the flute but it was the pipers’ gain. One set of tuning issues for another!
I’m curious what you’re basing this on. I know Music of Sligo is mostly about a half-step sharp. I’m not aware of any other recordings of Peter which aren’t more or less at concert pitch (but then, it’s not like I’ve sat down and carefully checked!) and I actually asked Peter once and he said he was playing D flute, not Eb on the album. My assumption has always been that the speed of the album got nudged up somewhere in the recording process.
I also think that saying something about tuning in the moment is the best course, certainly better than waiting for a quiet moment or a chance later - at that point it’s too late, the session may have been wrecked, and of course there’s no opportunity for the out of tune person to try being in tune and hence learning! That said, I agree completely that there are right ways to do it, and wrong ways. Throwing a tuner at someone is definitely a very wrong way - any decent musician, and one would think anyone that could hear the out-of-tuneness, would know that you can blow a whistle or flute “into tune” for the tuner, and then still be way out when playing!
Being grumpy and rude isn’t really good either, unless you’re trying to get people to leave…
MarkP - I share your existential paranoia as well - I play a flute that can easily be sharp in the second octave so I’m constantly worrying about it. I regularly check-in with my musical partner who has a very good ear. Blowing into a tuner isn’t useful at all. In the middle of a tune, one may be blowing much harder (and sharper) than normal, due to the environment / noise level / shape of the room.
Sorry you gave up the flute but it was the pipers’ gain.
I don’t know. The flute was for playing out. I could play the it sort of alright, nothing too offensive but it never came with the same ease, or to the same level, as playing the pipes. Which only added to the self consciousness.
Playing the flute you can’t be self conscious or shy about, you have to give it the full whack and as I found myself constantly holding back in the company of others, I was better off ditching it. The flute paid for a good negative scanner. Mind you, there’s a Martin Doyle flute that’s been sitting there smiling at me on the instrument exchange forum but so far I have looked the other way.
Anyway, that said, I’m not a bad flute player and I have a nice well-adjusted flute, and I have RTTA software at home, and I know where my slide and cork should be, and I have a fair idea of the extent of my personal tuning error at different air pressures. And I’ll be honest, I can blow a little bit flat sometimes with a very ‘downward’ embouchure. Anyway, there we are all hotting up for a fine old tune and I’m sat next to a fairly well known fluter. We tune up with the box, I play with said box player quite often, who has a fairly wide reed tuning but would always be at concert pitch. There is the usual grimacing of ‘flute faces’ around the room as we all pretend to adjust our tuning slides but knowing exactly where they will end up. And off we go. Said senior flute player breaks off mid tune to grimace some more and after the set announces rather pointedly to the room that ‘someone’ is out of tune. Suffering from flute player’s existential guilt syndrome I usually confess like the Spanish Inquisition in this situation. ‘Is it me?’, even if I’m sure it’s not me. ‘Someone is very sharp in the second octave’ comes the reply. Now, I’m pretty sure that I’m slightly flat til I’ve warmed up a and admit as much, making light of it. But apparently I’m wrong and I’m instructed rather loudly that ‘a session’ is a very different environment fom using a tuner. I meekly confess that I haven’t used a tuner, without confessing that I know what a f***ing session is like! I’m asked how far out my cork adjustment is (19mm). At this point I’m about 10mm on my tuning slide and, with my embouchure and RTTA, I know that even blowing like a crazed loon on a cold flute I would not be able to blow sharp in the second. By contrast, said flutist has his slide so far out that its in danger of falling off (more than inch at least) and every law of physic is yelling that the scale must be stretched out on the upper left hand notes. But there you go, I and the other two fluters defer to authority and we play on. At the end I’m given further public instruction to go and work on my sharp second octave playing and try a tuner. Self doubt gets the better of me and I decide to let it go. Fortunately for my bruised ego the session host leans right across him and thanks me for my mighty flute playing. Perplexing, and although I decided to let it go, fluter’s self doubt always tends to niggle at you and I sit out the next session to listen rather than mess it up. At a later session I’m playing with another flute player who really is sharp, really sharp!, but we have some good old tunes and stories. But that doubt keeps niggling away at me, so its back to the RTTA software, cork adjustments, lip adjustments, blowing like a compressor, and for the life of me I cannot get that first session tune to register as ‘sharp in the second octave’ with my flute set up. All in a day’s work I guess but how do you all deal with it? Does everyone else also admit they’re wrong when they know they’re probably right? Do you all admit to being the one who’s out of tune? 
) my embouchure weakened. And then I really was sharp in the second octave. I persevered and got a grip on myself, but it was a really hard thing to do. Is it possible that something like happened? It would never happen in the home with your RTTA because there’s no-one mean around to make you feel guilty and put you off.
Bob
, but I digress) after a set of tunes, the “senior” whistle player/uillean piper threw a tuner across the table, at me, and said “hey, blow into that!” I was mortified and slightly embarrassed…to be honest, I wanted to kick him in the shins…I thought it was very petty and had no place in a session…a little whisper in the ear or a “chat” afterwards would have sufficed…stubborn me has never sat down and played a tune with that man since, and that was 20 something years ago…if a person sees the need to critique another fellow musician, I think the problem would be more theirs than said musician…no need of that, at all, when like minded individual are out to have a few tunes…t’was a lesson learned though and I thank him for that…sure, I didn’t even know what a GD tuner was at the time!!