Oops, my poor writing, I wasn’t meaning to disparage the tuning particularly (although I think it was predictably more variable later in life). It was more an observation on the use of the tuning slide, which would necessitate more adjustment by ear and embouchure. I may be wrong 
Oh, yeah, he was definitely a bit variable in the 2000s! Even more so on fiddle…
As a flute player you’re blowing the sound away from you, and that in combination with the overtones in a flute might make it harder for flute players to hear how well in tune they are with others. I have a pretty good ear for hearing out-of-tuneness in others, but am far less good at hearing it in myself. I used to play a lot with an accordion player who had a fairly dry-tuned accordion, so my tuning needed to be spot on. It sounded good to my ears when I played with him, but when I recorded on his CDs and listened to the tracks later it was clear that I wasn’t nearly as in tune as it sounded to my ears when we were playing.
It’s especially hard in sessions since you need a reliable anchor point for tuning to, which is usually a concertina or accordion (or piano if one’s playing), but if it’s all fiddles, flutes, and pipes the tuning may be a little approximate anyway. Often I can tell that something’s off, but can’t tell if it’s me or someone else who’s out of tune. Sometimes I have to walk out of the room, far enough away that I can hear my flute clearly but close enough that I can hear how my flute sounds relative to the other musicians.
The flute has a tendency to go sharp as it warms up, of course, so it’s always good to check frequently.
I love this thread MarkP and it brings it all out. I think you took the high road. Graciously.
Here’s my favorite reference about tuning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr9Oho1nosE
Just play!
And if you run into her at the Fleadh tell her I said hello.
Often I can tell that something’s off, but can’t tell if it’s me or someone else who’s out of tune.
Yes, that’s a big problem and it only adds to the feeling of insecurity.
Yep!
Often that’s when I go back to just playing the pipes…
The problem with this type of discussion, where we only hear the story of the aggrieved, is that we would have had to have been there. You end up with, in this case, the senior player being called a bully etc. We don’t know if the tuning had being doing his head in for weeks, if he was asked by others to have a word or if he is actually an ogre. It doesn’t actually matter.
No relation to this particular case, but the naive “a session is a session” attitude, where people don’t realise that sessions are mostly very different from each other causes problems like the one described. In one session someone will fit in well and everyone is happy but in another a player may really have a negative affect on other peoples enjoyment - because they think all sessions are free for alls and anything else is the fabled elitism. As a result, at countless sessions round the world, “senior” players are tearing their hair out and others are being told hard truths, which is unpleasant either way. It’s generally a very difficult thing to do for a senior player to burst someones bubble but sometimes they’re asked to and other times they have to say something for the sake of the session. If they go as far as to say something it’s probably unlikely they’re wrong. - Again, I’m certainly not judging this case because we can’t.
I think it’s usually best to accept there is likely something in it in a situation like this, and even if there isn’t best use it as a positive and a motivation. Personally I think tuners are relatively useless for telling if an instrument like the flute is in tune. You just tend to blow till the needle reads in tune. you’re using your eyes to tune rather than your ears. In my opinion you’re much better finding good in-tune recordings of some tunes you play and play along with these to train the ears. Playing along with other players is very different to playing on your own into a tuner.
It’s generally a very difficult thing to do for a senior player to burst someones bubble but sometimes they’re asked to and other times they have to say something for the sake of the session.
As I said above, it’s all in the manner things are handled. I have arrived a couple of times at our regular with the whistle still tuned to the night before when it was firmly warmed up only to have Jackie Daly, who has quite an acute ear for a boxplayer, ask me to tune up slightly as the whistle was a bit flat. No harm done and perfectly justified.
On another occasion however I was coaxed into bringing the C pipes out one night. I did so reluctantly. Anyhow, one of the company pulled out a C whistle and started playing with the whistle just about as far out as possible before arriving at the next key. This was really excruciating and made it very hard to hear yourself think, especially as the whole thing was accompanied by giggles and shouts like ‘I should really tune this shouldn’t I!’ . When no attempt at tuning was made after four sets of tunes I asked the person quietly to either tune the whistle or stop playing, there would only be a few tunes in C anyway and I’d put the pipes away again in ten minutes or so. No fuss. The next day I received the call not to come back if ‘I couldn’t lighten up a bit’ and was going to be ‘elitist’ about it. That left a bad taste and I haven’t played out since except for the occasional tune with people I know well and really like to play with and a solo spot at a NPU tionol concert. I can do without that sort of added stress.
Back when I started, my whistle played quite a bit out of tune. My ear was good enough to know I was off, but I didn’t know anything about tweaking, and the glue on the whistle was so devilishly stuck that when I finally adjusted the head to be in tune, it cracked.
I do wish that someone had kindly helped me with the tuning way back then. Everyone, well N. Americans anyway, are so polite and afraid of offending. Of course the key word is “kindly”, and truth be told I was pretty sensitive and nervous when I started. Still I’d much prefer to to be educated than to have people complain behind my back.
Recently, I gave a well-tweaked whistle to a newcomer that cause our ears to suffer around here. I could afford it and she was a starving student. So everybody came out ahead.
Yes, I agree with you, and the main purpose of my original post and certainly not to accuse anyone of anything or to look for any sympathy 
. I’m more interested in how we deal with these common feelings of flute tuning paranoia, recognizing that they can dint our confidence and have quite an impact on our willingness to play out. I’m interested in how we bring it up and how we address it harmoniously. I’m also running some learners’ flute and whistle workshops in a couple of weeks and I thought I might bring this into one of the classes in some way, I’m thinking about how to do that so if anyone has any good ideas let me know!
For starters, here’s my list of common excuses so far…
'Hello neighbour…
I find this a very interesting, and enlightening thread.
"As a flute player you’re blowing the sound away from you, and that in combination with the overtones in a flute might make it harder for flute players to hear how well in tune they are with others. I have a pretty good ear for hearing out-of-tuneness in others, but am far less good at hearing it in myself. " Brad.
Yes, I agree. I tend to listen more to myself when playing the flute in a session, and can forget sometimes to also listen/check to make sure I’m blowing in tune with the other instruments throughout the tune/set.
“It’s especially hard in sessions since you need a reliable anchor point for tuning to, which is usually a concertina or accordion (or piano if one’s playing), but if it’s all fiddles, flutes, and pipes the tuning may be a little approximate anyway. Often I can tell that something’s off, but can’t tell if it’s me or someone else who’s out of tune” Brad.
Yes, when unsure if it’s me, or someone else that’s off, I check with my tuner during a break in tunes if possible, before another set starts up, to see if I’m in tune. I blow hard at session strength, no point in being shy and blowing feeble, and can quickly see if my A, D G E 's are off.
I tend to blow sharp so on the 1892 R C & Co. I mostly use, I have the slide well extended, and have the embouchure hole turned in. The tuning for me then is very stable in both octaves, even when the flute has warmed up for some reason.
“I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with calling out bad tuning. The way it’s done is what matters. There’s really no point in making it a public spectacle but sometimes something needs to be done to correct poor tuning, and do realise poor tuning of one participant can ruin the night for all. But again, there’s no need to do it in a way that puts anyone publicly on the spot.
As far as the ‘existential guilt’ phenomenon goes, fluteplayers have been known to go off a bit, trailing of just below or above the tuning the others are trying to keep to. Fluteplaying is perhaps more physical than playing most other instruments and just feeling tired can wreak havoc with tone and tuning.” Peter.
As both Peter, and NicoMoreno mention, how, and when the issue of tuning is broached is very important. If someone says/suggests that I’m out of tune, then I check to see if I am, without getting upset, or defensive. I’d rather someone say something as soon as possible, than play all evening out of tune, or in a different key to everyone else (although I think I’d notice that). That’s like going around all day with bad breath, or your fly unbuttoned, or with toilet paper on your shoe, and no one saying anything.
However If it turns out I am in tune, then I’ll ask them to check their tuning, and if they should refuse then the whole situation can quickly escalate into flute rage, resulting in broken instruments, broken noses, beards set on fire, clothes torn off, which can spoil the session for others.
A few years ago I went for my morning walk on a beautiful early spring day, the first gloriously sunny, warm day we’d had after a long, cold, snowy winter. I was walking down the sidewalk and everyone I passed smiled at me, which put me in a great mood; I thought, ah, that’s nice, everyone is enjoying this lovely day just as much as I am!
And then when I got home I discovered the real reason everyone was smiling at me: my fly had been wide open the entire time.
Now whenever I walk down the street and someone smiles at me I instinctively look down at my crotch.
It’s not so different from having an out-of-tune flute episode: you start getting that paranoia…is it me, is it someone else who’s out of tune? I think as flute players we just have to accept that we’re often the culprits when it comes to being out of tune, and that we may need to rely on others to let us know. I think it’s easier to hear if you’re someone with a very focused tone, like June McCormack; the tone she gets out of her flute is almost fiddle-like in that it has a hard, focused edge. In contrast, someone with a more diffuse, round tone probably has a harder time telling if they’re in tune. I know at least that when my own tone is focused I tend to be able to hear more clearly whether I’m in tune with others.
Thanks for all the handy advice and reflections, I might see if I can come with an activity or discussion for one of the workshops.
As an aside, another experience this week observing a musician at a busy pre fleadh session who was playing considerably more than a quarter tone flat, while using an electronic tuner, sitting next to a very experienced player who addressed it quietly, in good humour and admirably well.
busy pre fleadh
There’s certainly a build up (and immense quantities of hype). I was in Ennis earlier this week, plenty of early arrivals wandering and just now there were plenty of clumsily/dangerously driven rental cars on the roads.
An additional problem we flute players might have.
Fiddle players probably often come from a background of having had at least a reasonable amount of formal training as classical violin players. As that I guess they would get coaching / training for tuning skills. Fluters are often have to figure things out for themselves. I wonder how tuning is covered in classical / professional music teaching.
I know previous posters did not seem to be asking for help on tuning and that they were sorted, so this is not intended for those but may help others and also be useful as personal experience seemed to be being looked for.
I found teaching myself fiddle, and how to tune accurately, has helped lots. I’d recommend buy a cheap one even if you have not intension of learning to play. If you can’t get on with bowing just pluck.
I also used the theta Website , it might be a bit basic for a well trained ear on the free training but there is also a advanced section with modest fees.
I also find playing close to a table surface, or any hand hard surface, for a few moments helps me to hear myself better if that’s difficult.
Whistle players don’t have that problem as the key is stamped on the whistle. Whistles are always in tune. 
Fiddle players probably often come from a background of having had at least a reasonable amount of formal training as classical violin players.
I don’t think you can make that generalisatiion, not about fiddle players in Ireland anyway.
Whistle players are some the most obvious offenders 
Forgive me Father for I have sinned…
Nearly all of us have, those who say they haven’t might be deceived or liars!
Brad’s comment earlier re flute players blowing the sound away from themselves is scary. So we can’t really hear ourselves properly. I know the effect he is taking about. As flute players we can’t really know what we are doing? and that is before any man has drink taken. Maybe we have some audio engineers or astro physicists or the like who can give more explanation. Could be a lot in it. It’s so scary, anyone please?
Yes I would have guessed that would be the case. What made me muse on this is seeing fleadhs here in England. The fiddle completions seem to have many more ‘technically proficient’ competitors compared to flute, also might apply a little to sessions here. As lessons become easier to obtain I think to situation changes. That is probably the situation in Ireland.
Training or not, what fiddle players have is four notes that they can have little excuse for not being in tune. And if one of them goes out they have a chance correcting it by reference to the other three.
Not only do I find it hard to recognise if out of tuneness amongst flutes and whistles is me but whilst it is happening I can’t seem to compare myself with a reference such as a box.
Am not sure if I find it reassuring that experienced players can have problems or depressing that even they do.