Intonation Question

I have been a player of fretted stringed instruments for a very long time and have been playing flute for several years. I have recently gotten bold enough with my flute playing to take it to sessions with me and am able to keep up, but I have had several friends tell me that some of my notes sound out of tune when I play.

I have several flutes all by good makers and the problem persists on all of them. I am sure that it is not the flute but me. If I play individual notes into a tuner the notes of course are in tune, but when I play faster not so much. I guess I am relatively tone deaf as I cannot hear this as I am playing and have never had this issue on fretted instruments.

My question is this: How does one learn to have good intonation? Are people really able to make small adjustments for each note at speed?

Thanks.

Mandoboy

Disclaimer: I’m a newbie to flute, but not a newbie to music. :slight_smile:

It’s entirely reasonable that you are “out of tune,” that’s it’s not the flute’s fault, and that you learn to hear these small discrepancies and then learn to fix them.

Tuning issues come about because a lot of Western music is based on the false “fact” that when you climb up the scale by seven octaves, and someone next to you starts at the same place and climbs up by twelve fifths, you both end up at exactly the same place. The problem is, it’s not quite true. If your friend climbs up by twelve fifths, he will actually overshoot you by a tiny amount. Western music pretends that this is “close enough,” though. This is why within one octave, we have twelve different flavors of notes counting the chromatics.

Now, in order to fit those twelve fifths into seven octaves exactly on a piano as an example (an instrument on which the circle of fifths can actually close, because it’s over seven octaves wide), what’s done is the fifths are squished by a tiny bit to crush out that overshoot. It’s as if that small discrepancy is chopped up finely and dusted over the whole keyboard. The noticeability of this fine dust becomes more and more obvious as you go lower, BTW. This is why low thirds on a piano make your teeth chatter, and yet thirds on the high end sound much nicer. The discrepancy is still there, but you get used to not listening for it at the piano (or guitar, where the notes are marked out for you with frets).

It’s still noticeable on a higher instrument like a flute or a violin though, and you can learn to hear it. It’s even more noticeable when you play with others since tuning comes into play whenever you consider the relationships between notes – this can be how two notes get along one after another, or in parallel when they are both played at the same time. And once you have multiple single-note players together, you have multiple notes that all have to gel well together. This means that each player has to fudge their notes the tiniest little bit to adjust for one another, for the keys they are playing in, and for the spread of the notes (how many octaves in the range that the band will cover). Tuning is a black art.

This can be a strange thing for people who play alone, or who play instruments with set tunings, which describes us both. :slight_smile: (I’m a pianist and harpist, and play by myself almost entirely since I’m a bit of a hermit.) For you, you may be used to the way the guitar just gives you a certain set of notes with the frets, and if you have your fingers in the right place, then you are defined as playing in tune. The piano is the same way. You want a middle F#, you hit that key right there, and that’s the only middle F# available to you. It’s got that “discrepancy dust” on it, but that’s the only middle F# you have.

However, depending on who else you are playing with, and what key you are playing in, you may actually be able to sweeten that note by blowing the dust off of it in one direction or another. You do that on a fretless string instrument by moving your fingertip a tiny titch one way or another, and you do it on a wind instrument by noodging the note up or down a titch with your lips. (It is so easy to assume that “if my fingers are in the right place, then I’m playing the right note by definition,” but it’s actually not the case.)

It’s just not something you’re used to listening for. Either you play by yourself and don’t worry as much about it, or you play a fixed-pitch instrument, and you have just learned to accept the tuning compromises you have to make on them.

I’ve found three things very useful for me:

  1. Get off of the fixed-pitch instrument for a while (guitar for you, piano for me) and just play your flute. I did this with a viola for a while and was staggered at how strongly the “dusty” notes sounded off to me when I sat at my piano. This effect went away after a while though, and now I can swap back and forth between both without problems since my ear has learned what it’s supposed to hear from one instrument versus the other.

  2. Play against a drone. You can buy a shruti box app for your phone that’s very useful. These are electronic versions of a box often used in Indian classical music that will play reedy drones for you like the sound made by a concertina. Don’t play against a tuner – you don’t want to be aiming with your eyes. You want to aim with your ears, and learn to recognize what it sounds like when you play a note in just that right “sweet spot” as opposed to being a titch too high or low. Set it to drone a low D and then play D-F#-A-D’ up and back against it.

  3. Record yourself. This feels a bit like sitting down in couples therapy while the therapist turns to your sig oth and says, “Okay. Now you tell me one thing he does that annoys you.” It’s painful but necessary. Play a piece, then let it sit for a bit. Go get a cup of coffee or something, and then come back in a few minutes. Sit quietly and imagine exactly how the song you played would sound in your head. Build a nice, clear image of what you think it should sound like. Then … hit play and hear what you actually sounded like. Chances are, the places where your tuning is off will jump out at you.

Basically, once you learn to hear what’s going on, you’ll start making the small corrections you need to make without realizing you’re doing it. This has been my experience with the viola, the trumpet, and with tuning my harp, and I fully expect exactly the same thing to happen with my flute.

Right now though, it’s something you aren’t used to listening for because you have a lot of experience with instruments that don’t enable fine corrections while playing, nor with playing with others. In time, you will learn to hear it, and once you hear it, you will learn to correct it. I did.

Sorry for the interminable ramble …

Here’s a good example of what you can learn to start listening for:

https://youtu.be/I_ImURf8KUE?t=12m24s

This is a harp documentary by the BBC. In this particular section of it, Catrin Finch plays a lever harp (tuned in the squished, “dusty” tuning used by modern harps and pianos) against Paul Dooley, playing a clairseach that has no levers – in other words, it only plays in one key and it has been sweetened for that one key only. When Dooley plays a chord, and then Finch plays the same chord, you will hear that hers sounds markedly different and a little “off.” Had she played alone, you might never have noticed it, though.

When starting out I found that embouchure excercises and also as mentioned above playing scales against drone notes helped my intonation as well as recording my playing.

If you do a search on the forum for Intonation there are a few posts that may help.

I found useful info on Terry’s site - http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Getting_the_hard_dark_tone.htm

And came across this recently which may be of some use for intonation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6eQDsR81cQ

I’ve also had a recommendation for an app called JustDrones. It has an adjustable pipe drone, and will allow you to set both a base note and another drone note at a variable interval. It’s good for an auditory reference while you are playing.

People really do make those small adjustments at speed: there are some youtube videos of Matt Molloy where you can see this pretty clearly; I think especially in the one where he’s taking turns playing tunes with James Galway.

But one of the things about the flute is that as you develop your embouchure, the flute generally plays more in tune with itself. A weak, inconsistent tone will almost always result in many notes being clearly out of tune. I’m not sure why, but once you start playing with a more focused, consistent airstream, many of the minor tuning problems go away. But you still have to make small adjustments for some notes.

On simple-system conical bore flutes, certain notes always need to be adjusted to bring them in tune: if your G is right at concert pitch, the A will be sharp on most flutes, for example. So will the E, though normally less audibly so. On some flutes the bottom D is deliberately tuned a bit flat and once you learn how to blow it in tune it gives you a very rewarding tone.

I’ve never spent time checking each note of my flutes against a tuner; as suggested above playing with a drone is good practice. I’ve played a lot with accordion players, which also forces you to pay attention to your tuning. And of course the flute gets sharper after you start playing it, so you usually have to pull out the tuning slide a bit after 10 minutes or so.

I second (or third or Nth) the drone idea. Someone, I think Catherine Folkers, wrote a very nice treatise on playing the baroque flute in tune. The baroque flute is like the Irish/romantic flute only moreso. The scale has even more compromises, and it needs to be played with true intervals. So she recommends playing with a drone, not only trying to match the pitch, but also trying to play true thirds and fifths. That’s partly embouchure training, but also partly ear training to hear the true intervals.

I think this builds on what others have said – your ears are used to playing the fixed-pitch instrument, and your embouchure is still building strength.

I think you raise a great issue, Mandoboy. And hats off to you for both recognizing the tuning issue, and looking for ways to improve the situation. (I sometimes hear flute players with tuning issues who seem not to notice or not at all concerned.) I was just talking with some flute friends about this recently, and noted that it is an important issue that does not seem to get talked about much. While some flutes have better internal tuning than others, my experience is that all simple system flutes are such that the tuning of certain individual notes needs to be attended to to some extent.

I don’t have any sort of silver bullet answer; this is more of an “I feel your pain” response. But I have been trying to play with a drone, and also have tried playing staring at a tuner. Another thing that I have been doing (and this ties in with the “First Fifty” thread) is playing along with the CD that comes with the book, paying close attention to tuning. This CD has a couple of features that make it ideal for this. First, the tunes are played quite slowly, definitely not at session speed. Thus you can really hear when notes are out of tune. Second, the tracks are very sparse (just flute, fiddle and guitar); that too helps you hear when particular notes are a bit wonky. I’m hoping that these sorts of things will eventually make natural the sorts of adjustments needed. But my sense is that it is going to take some work. (Which is fine!)

As I said, I am on the same journey and by no means have I arrived. But I appreciate your raising the issue, and I appreciate the responses so far.

If you’re having to make adjustments for each note, the flute doesn’t have acceptable intonation, in my opinion.

I want a flute to be “needle straight up” from Bottom D up to High B, on an even breath. Then I can just play!

Imagine a guitar where one fret was misplaced! It would drive you crazy, no? That’s what a flute is like, if it has a bum note.

May I ask on which notes your problem is? Knowing that could be the clue to figuring out what the problem is.

BTW the fact that a flute is made by a respected maker doesn’t mean much. A perfectly good flute can have a tiny undetectable leak, or have a slightly misplaced cork. Respected makers can make flutes with less-than-perfect tuning. You shouldn’t have to try to compensate for such stuff… reels and jigs are too fast for that.

BTW I studied Baroque Flute at university, so I know about blowing notes into tune. Irish music isn’t Baroque music, and I want an Irish flute to be in tune as it stands.

I think the suggestion of playing over a fixed drone is great. I did hours of that back in the 70s when I was learning Irish flute. You can start slow and get faster over time, keeping the notes pure. It’s better in that it drills Just Intonation into your head, rather than Equal Temperament.

If you want to drill with ET there are vocalist’s warmup Apps that have arpeggios and such. I think these are great for flute warmups too. (I wonder if these Apps can be had in JI?)

Another thing is slowdown software. I might suggest playing along with a top uilleann piper slowed down considerably so you can hear the pitch of each note. If it’s a solo piper playing with drones then you get the drones and melody notes both. Any good piper’s chanter should be well in tune in JI.

If that’s what you want, you’d need to get a Boehm-system flute. With a cylindrical bore, the maker can place all the toneholes in their acoustically correct positions. You can’t do that with a conical-bore flute, at least not if it’s designed to be playable in tune in three octaves. Some modern makers who focus on making flutes specifically for Irish music, where you don’t go above the third-octave D, have designed flutes that are more “straight up” in tune in the first two octaves, but with a conical-bore flute there are always going to be a few small fudges in tuning on certain notes.

Different makers approach these differently. It’s especially apparent on big- and long-bore flutes like a Bb. I have two Bb flutes now, one by Chris Wilkes and one by Tom Aebi. They couldn’t be more different in terms of tuning: on the Wilkes the C# (speaking as if this were a D flute) is very flat and I have to lip it up into tune. But the C natural is spot-on with standard cross fingering. On the Aebi, the C# is spot on but a standard two-fingered C natural is very sharp and I have to use an alternative fingering to bring it down to the correct pitch (or else I have to use the C natural key, which I am loathe to do in the first octave).

I think the suggestion of playing over a fixed drone is great.

Even if your ‘needle straight up’ is at odds with the perfect harmonies over drone playing aims to train.

Happily ITM doesn’t use three octaves, the full range being from Bottom D to B (or C) in the 2nd octave.

Every Irish flute I ever owned and played was like that, needle straight up on every note in that range.

I’ve tried hundreds of Irish flutes over the last 35+ years that were like that too.

The exception would be C#, which is generally a hair flat of ET on Irish flutes, which I accept because I want the crossfingered C natural to be spot-on.

Also vintage flutes and new Irish flutes often have F# a hair flat, at the JI position rather than the ET position, which many prefer.

These exceptions are still needle straight up, but to JI rather than to ET.

It’s why I mentioned using both a drone (for JI) and vocalist warmups (for ET).

Also I have an electronic tuner which can be adjusted to ET, JI, and many other systems.

Tuning is situational. Playing it JI is out of tune in ET situations, playing in ET is out of tune in JI situations.

I need needle straight up at ET for studio work.

I think people make more of an issue of the ET v JI thing than it deserves anyhow.

As I’ve said before my uilleann chanter plays needle straight up on every note at ET, and is the veteran of hundreds of studio gigs and orchestral gigs where no classical musicians or conductors found anything amiss.

However I can turn on my drones and the chanter is in tune with them… the F#s blending, even though they oughtn’t. I guess I should make a YouTube video demonstrating this.

There aren’t very many flutes that are specifically designed for Irish music, though. I believe Olwell, Hamilton, and Cotter have all designed their flutes to play pretty well in tune in the first two octaves, but quite a few other leading makers stick more closely to the older designs (R&R, Pratten, etc.), which require small adjustments to bring some of the notes into tune.

The fact that you can play “hundreds of Irish flutes” and have them “needle straight up on every note” probably says more about your ability to play the flute than it says about those flutes. I can play flutes in tune now too, but I’m making small adjustments unconsciously, plus as I mentioned above once your embouchure is strong and you can deliver a focused and consistent airflow, most of the tuning issues go away.

I have a friend who owns a Grinter flute, and despite being a good flute player he was always complaining that it was out of tune. I played it and it sounded perfectly in tune to me. But that’s because I’ve learned over the years how to play a simple-system flute in tune.

A weak, inconsistent tone will almost always result in many notes being clearly out of tune. I’m not sure why, but once you start playing with a more focused, consistent airstream, many of the minor tuning problems go away. But you still have to make small adjustments for some notes.

This has been my experience. If you are not getting strong tone, the notes will be off.

I just bought a Muramatsu Boehm flute and at first I noticed the first octave was sharp. I just needed to get accustomed to it, Its perfectly in tune…

Being a piper, im used to playing with drones and making adjustments for tuning. I have an electric keyboard and I will drone a note and play my flute with it. This helps me find what notes need some help.

Great thread, thanks for the technical detail. My simplistic method has been sit next to someone really good in a session and tune to them. Somewhat impolite and probably grates on their nerves and doesn’t improve my tuning over time. The drone suggestion is excellent and I will take it up.
L

I think once you hit the point that you adjust automatically, you cease realizing you are doing it until you’ve had one pint too many and your flute suddenly loses is perfect pitch.
:swear:


Eric

Thanks for all the replies. I see where my next flute adventure will be heading.

I did get a shruti app for my phone but I am not sure how I would use it as it is a varying pitch with that beautiful East Indian sound. I could not find a drone app for Android except ones for flying small unmanned aircraft.

Can anyone explain how to use the shruti box for practice?

Thanks.

Mando

There should be a way to configure the app to play a single tone – just a nice low D.

What you’ll want to do is play against that drone, and just get used to how the two sounds blend. Play the same D on your flute as on the app, and then let your intonation wander a bit sharp and flat – you’ll hear the combination of the two sounds get a little squirrelly and then smooth out, and get squirrelly again. This squirrelliness – sorry, but I can’t think of another word for it – is something you’ll need to recognize when you hear it as a sign that you’re a titch off. Basically, you want to train your ear to recognize what it sounds when the notes are close but just a tiny bit off, so that you can correct for it. I’d do this with more than just the D, too – try this with multiple different notes and long tones played against them.

Then, set the shruti to play a low D, and the play an A against it. See if you can recognize what it sounds like when that interval, a perfect fifth, is just a titch off. There should also be a squirrelly wobbliness to the sound, just a very slight unpleasant auditory shimmer that you will start to learn to spot. Go sharp on the A you’re blowing, then flat – just by a little bit – and train yourself to spot that irritating shimmer when the two sounds almost go well together but not quite.

Tuning is a huge pain in general if you come from a fixed-pitch instrument. It’s easy to just want the thing to play the right flipping note, but you’ve got four things all going on that conspire against you:

  1. Your lips aren’t always exact;
  2. The flute can’t be exact, physically I mean. Correct one note by changing a tonehole, and another will wander off;
  3. What constitutes “in tune” changes depending on the tune you’re playing and who else you’re playing it with, and
  4. Western music itself is inherently slightly out of tune.

Your only recourse is to play a single solid note using the shruti app, then play long tones against that, and train your ear to recognize what it sounds like when you are almost there but not quite. It’s a lifetime thing. It will take a while to learn, and there will be days when you can get it completely right and it’s clear as water to you, and other days when you can’t zero in on the right note or even tell what kind of correction you need to make. Keep going; it gets better.

Does the shruti app you bought have any online documentation that will teach you how to play drones (steady single tones)?

(Again, I hasten to add that I am a newbie on the flute but am speaking from experience with other instruments, fixed pitch and otherwise.)

These are good points, to which I would add a fifth, which actually comes from the accordion player Paddy O’Brien (the one from Offaly, not Tipperary):

  1. This is peasant’s music–just play it!

Playing perfectly in tune might be important if you’re in a band or playing with an orchestra or whatever, but I wouldn’t get too exercised about it myself if you’re playing Irish traditional music. If you can track it down, have a listen to the album “Fortune Favours the Merry,” recorded by fiddler Gerry Harrington on fiddle and the late Peter Horan on flute. The flute is a bit sharp to the fiddle overall, as is often the case, but there are lots of tuning discordances on individual notes as well. Does it matter? No, it’s great music. The out-of-tuneness might be jarring at first, but you soon listen beyond it to catch the spirit of the players, the connection between them, the rhythm and lift of the music, and tuning falls in importance to those stronger features and statements. It’s not that we should aim for imperfection in order to sound “authentic,” but more that it’s worth developing a tolerance for instruments that aren’t played perfectly in tune because you’re going to hear a lot of that in Irish music. When I listened to old LPs I didn’t let occasional pops and scratches get in the way of my enjoyment of the music. It’s the same with tuning. It’s worth learning how to play your instrument in tune, but probably not worth it to focus on it obsessively at the cost of other more important things.