Mike,
I am not exactly sure I understand what your objection to the whistle making forum is? I think the point is that there is a fair amount of discussion about the construction of whistles and flutes on their respective forums and that it might be interesting to have a forum where people could go to discuss various methods of constructing the different instruments. It would certainly make it easier for people to find the posts that relate to instrument construction.
chattiekathy,
That cow looks like it’s blowing milk out of its nose! Is that where milk REALLY comes from???
On 2002-10-17 14:57, Gary wrote:
chattiekathy,That cow looks like it’s blowing milk out of its nose! Is that where milk REALLY comes from???
Gary have you ever been on a farm? Don’t you know that little zzzz’s come out of there. That’s a snoozing cow. Besides, it’s the only cow I could find, and with the stinky price of milk right now, I thought I would get the message out there to drink milk. But, please not right before you play your whistle. It could leave a nasty residue on your fipple.
Kathy and her friend
On 2002-10-17 15:28, chattiekathy wrote:
Besides, it’s the only cow I could find, and with the stinky price of milk right now, I thought I would get the message out there to drink milk. But, please not right before you play your whistle. It could leave a nasty residue on your fipple.
Oh, man that brings back nasty pictures of high school band. Folks were doing the “how gross is your spit valve” contest and the winner was a tuba player who played after drinking chocolate milk. Yuk…
On 2002-10-17 12:28, mike.r wrote:
A Whistle makers forum? No way!Mr Serpent,many Whistlesmiths share there knowledge freely on this forum already.Since your arrival on the forum as the self appointedvillage idiot?(your words,not mine)many of your questions indicate huge gaps in your knowledge of whistlemaking, and photos of your efforts,although nicely engraved ,look somewhat amateurish in my opinion...perhaps deliberately so for thatrustic?aesthetic /charm mentioned in a review on this forum,perhaps not.A few makers are active members of the forum without promoting themselves with every post..they simply enjoy being a part of a whistle community.I hope I, m not being out of line here. Mike
Hi, Mike! Taking over for Loren, are we?
I don’t understand your objection. A whistlemakers’ forum here would remove just those nasty commercial-seeming (to you and a few vocal others) posts you seem so unhappy with, allowing you to simply ignore that forum, while allowing us whistlesmiths, good, bad, indifferent, neophyte or veteran, to share information in one compact space. No more treading on the toes of those who simply want to talk whistling!
As to the quality or lack thereof, of my products, you are entitled to your opinions, though you’ve never seen one in person.
As to whether my posts promote my business, well, again, that’s a matter of opinion, and I do feel that I take considerable care to see that those having nothing to do with the manufacture of whistles, don’t tread on the Sacred Ground of simple whistling or humour. The official (read “non-self-appointed”) monitors of this forum have not killed any of my posts, nor have they objected in any way to what I have to say. Frankly, I think you need to re-examine your motives in light of that fact.
I maintain that a “whistlesmiths” forum would be a Good Thing for C&F. That’s all.
Regards,
Bill Whedon
On 2002-10-17 14:03, Liam wrote:
Mike,
I am not exactly sure I understand what your objection to the whistle making forum is? I think the point is that there is a fair amount of discussion about the construction of whistles and flutes on their respective forums and that it might be interesting to have a forum where people could go to discuss various methods of constructing the different instruments. It would certainly make it easier for people to find the posts that relate to instrument construction.
Liam,my objections for such a proposed forum are 1; it would invite theft of information by unscrupulous persons.2; No-one is special and deserves special treatment.3;It would invite excesive commercial posting by those who shout the loudest. Mike
On 2002-10-17 15:32, serpent wrote:
On 2002-10-17 12:28, mike.r wrote:
A Whistle makers forum? No way!Mr Serpent,many Whistlesmiths share there knowledge freely on this forum already.Since your arrival on the forum as the self appointedvillage idiot?(your words,not mine)many of your questions indicate huge gaps in your knowledge of whistlemaking, and photos of your efforts,although nicely engraved ,look somewhat amateurish in my opinion...perhaps deliberately so for thatrustic?aesthetic /charm mentioned in a review on this forum,perhaps not.A few makers are active members of the forum without promoting themselves with every post..they simply enjoy being a part of a whistle community.I hope I, m not being out of line here. MikeHi, Mike! Taking over for Loren, are we?
I don’t understand your objection. A whistlemakers’ forum here would remove just those nasty commercial-seeming (to you and a few vocal others) posts you seem so unhappy with, allowing you to simply ignore that forum, while allowing us whistlesmiths, good, bad, indifferent, neophyte or veteran, to share information in one compact space. No more treading on the toes of those who simply want to talk whistling!As to the quality or lack thereof, of my products, you are entitled to your opinions, though you’ve never seen one in person.
As to whether my posts promote my business, well, again, that’s a matter of opinion, and I do feel that I take considerable care to see that those having nothing to do with the manufacture of whistles, don’t tread on the Sacred Ground of simple whistling or humour. The official (read “non-self-appointed”) monitors of this forum have not killed any of my posts, nor have they objected in any way to what I have to say. Frankly, I think you need to re-examine your motives in light of that fact.
I maintain that a “whistlesmiths” forum would be a Good Thing for C&F. That’s all.
Regards,
Bill Whedon
You have mis-quoted me by inserting question marks afterIdiot´and rustic´…just wanted to point this out to set the record straight.`We´are not taking over from anyone.Best of luck to you and your new forum quest.
Mike
Hi, Mike,
I didn’t want to quote the whole thing, but I did want to let you know that I didn’t change the quote-marks to question marks. That’s the way they appeared in your original post (and are still that way in my browser). I have no way to alter or edit your post, and I have no idea what happened to change them. It confused me, too!
Just as an experiment, I’m going to single quote this ‘single-quoted’ and double quote this “double-quoted” and let’s see what it looks like when it posts!
Thanks for the kind wishes. I don’t hold out too much hope for such a forum, because there are apparently so many opposed, though I have no idea why. I didn’t intend it for exclusivity, just focus, and thought I made that Really, Really Clear. No intention of shutting anyone out, at all! I just want a place to discuss the technicalities - not to steal ideas or “trade secrets” from anybody, nor to keep non-commercial makers, nor just seekers after knowledge out. Heck, I began as a seeker, myself, and am still learning from folks like BrewerPaul, Alba, Sandy Jasper, and others. Every one of them has been most helpful, even to the extent of sending me samples of fipple materials, asking nothing in return! I love that kind of selfless helpfulness, and want to return it to the community as a whole.
Well, I’ve rattled on long enough - the new forum will either fly with Dale or it won’t, but I really hope it does, even as a test.
Best wishes,
Bill Whedon
Why is it that when one person expresses an opinion on this board, and others join and express theirs; we end up with a p***ing contest? Whatever happened to dialogue for the sake of fleshing out new ideas. Mike simply asked a question: is anyone (including Dale) interested in a forum dedicated to the discussion of and exchange of information about the art of whistle-making. Yes or No. You can support your position, but please stop with the personal attacks. It’s getting old!
On 2002-10-18 05:41, mike.r wrote:
amount of discussion about the constructionLiam,my objections for such a proposed forum are 1; it would invite theft of information by unscrupulous persons.2; No-one is special and deserves special treatment.3;It would invite excesive commercial posting by those who shout the loudest. Mike
Mike,
I am not sure that all your objections are valid (But please feel free to correct me if I don’t understand exactly what you are getting at).
- I am not sure how such a forum would invite theft; no one is forced to participate in any forum and certainly whistle makers would be free to not reveal any trade secrets. Almost by its very nature, any information that is posted to this forum or to the proposed whistle maker’s forum is public and therefore not subject to theft (unless it is protected by a patent).
2.I am not sure I understand your argument about people not being special or deserving special treatment? Are you are arguing that whistle makers are no different than any other whistle interested person? From my perspective, I see that there are a number of people on Chiff and Fipple who either make instruments (professionally or otherwise) or would at least like to try to make an instrument. It might be useful to provide a forum specifically for those discussions just as there is a special forum for those interested in playing the flute.
- I suppose that one could argue that any post by a professional whistle maker is a form of advertising but I think unless a person is too blatent it should not be a problem. Heck the guys who make whistles for a living naturally know more about it than most people who do not; that is what would make such individuals such a valuable resource for the forum.
Anyway, I just think it would be an interesting resource. I have never made any sort of musical instrument, but think it would be cool to learn how.
On 2002-10-18 08:42, fiddling_tenor wrote:
Why is it that when one person expresses an opinion on this board, and others join and express theirs; we end up with a p***ing contest? Whatever happened to dialogue for the sake of fleshing out new ideas. Mike simply asked a question: is anyone (including Dale) interested in a forum dedicated to the discussion of and exchange of information about the art of whistle-making. Yes or No. You can support your position, but please stop with the personal attacks. It’s getting old!
Hey, you’re comin’ in after the flames have died! 
Sometimes things git a bit pissy here, but friend, nothing in the world like on the newsgroups! If you want to see genyoowine flamewars (to get a bit of perspective), jump on deja news and have a gander at misc.fitness.weights – language suitable for a Federal penitentiary, personal attacks, threats of violence in abundance there.
Sure, there are arguments here on C&F, but we generally wind up being nice to one another in the long result. Everybody has a boiling point, and nobody likes to get beaten up on a regular basis, especially when they perceive it as unjustified. That’s when you see the “stiff” posts start, but to my knowledge, nobody has called anybody nasty names - well, I kind of make jokes about me being the “village idiot”, but only when I think it’s justified by some silly mistake in “netiquette” here – it’s different than the “netiquette” (such as it is) on newsgroups, and I sometimes stumble.
Anyhow, AFAICS, we’ve passed the point where we’re fighting over my little request for a new forum, and are discussing it, mostly in a nice tone. You’re certainly most welcome to add your 2p to the pile, as well. I’m not trying to force anything down anyone’s throat - just presenting an idea FWIW. If it flies, it flies; if not, then I suppose we’ll just have to continue putting up with the difficulties engendered by trying to discuss in a venue not really designed for the sort of discussion I envisioned.
If you’ve gotten this far, let me add one more item: For those of you who think such a forum would invite advertising abuse, think again. What I proposed to Dale was a forum which has the same rules as the PostStructural, save that you could identify yourself as a whistlemaker in your .sig - not put blatant ads anywhere - just an identification so we know who’s asking, and who’s being asked. And AFAIC, that’s not an imperative. I’d drop that request in a heartbeat if it would further the cause of getting the forum created.
Just so’s ya know!
Best regards,
Bill Whedon
Hey, Mike! I think maybe this is what happened (if you get a left single quote and a question-mark following, that is)
`hit the key under the tilde’ and closed with the one under the double-quote.
Lessee if that does it - if not, then I’m stumped and will just leave it.
(Edit) nuts. It didn’t work. What make of keyboard are you running? (email me, let’s take it offline and try to figger it out!)
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
[ This Message was edited by: serpent on 2002-10-18 10:29 ]
On 2002-10-18 09:57, Liam wrote:
On 2002-10-18 05:41, mike.r wrote:
amount of discussion about the constructionLiam,my objections for such a proposed forum are 1; it would invite theft of information by unscrupulous persons.2; No-one is special and deserves special treatment.3;It would invite excesive commercial posting by those who shout the loudest. Mike
Mike,
I am not sure that all your objections are valid (But please feel free to correct me if I don’t understand exactly what you are getting at).
- I am not sure how such a forum would invite theft; no one is forced to participate in any forum and certainly whistle makers would be free to not reveal any trade secrets. Almost by its very nature, any information that is posted to this forum or to the proposed whistle maker’s forum is public and therefore not subject to theft (unless it is protected by a patent).
2.I am not sure I understand your argument about people not being special or deserving special treatment? Are you are arguing that whistle makers are no different than any other whistle interested person? From my perspective, I see that there are a number of people on Chiff and Fipple who either make instruments (professionally or otherwise) or would at least like to try to make an instrument. It might be useful to provide a forum specifically for those discussions just as there is a special forum for those interested in playing the flute.
- I suppose that one could argue that any post by a professional whistle maker is a form of advertising but I think unless a person is too blatent it should not be a problem. Heck the guys who make whistles for a living naturally know more about it than most people who do not; that is what would make such individuals such a valuable resource for the forum.
Anyway, I just think it would be an interesting resource. I have never made any sort of musical instrument, but think it would be cool to learn how.
Liam,If for example M.Burke gave detailed description on his bore perturbation methods you can be sure it will be coppied and others will profit.`No one is special´ is one of the C&F guidlines for posting on all forums..it also means we are all equally special(I think).Erik.T,Sandy Jasper,Mac Hoover and many other whistlemakers sort of blend in with everyone else and are always helpful and generous with their knowledge and experience when called upon..OT and On topic. Mike
On 2002-10-18 10:50, mike.r wrote:
Liam,If for example M.Burke gave detailed description on his bore perturbation methods you can be sure it will be coppied and others will profit.`No one is special´ is one of the C&F guidlines for posting on all forums..it also means we are all equally special(I think).Erik.T,Sandy Jasper,Mac Hoover and many other whistlemakers sort of blend in with everyone else and are always helpful and generous with their knowledge and experience when called upon..OT and On topic.
point one:
Anyone who wants to determine in detail what Mike Burke does with perturbing his whistles can purchase one and measure it. “Trade secrets” never stay secret. However, what keeps business for folks like Mike isn’t some secret that they discover and then bank off of. It’s the continual improvements they make and the service and attention they provide to customers. Jim Olsen is a guitar builder who has taught several other builders who are now commanding $5k and have waiting lists. He has published multiple articles on his techniques and frequently lectures. He shares his secrets. He still has 2+ years more orders than he can deal with. He’s not an exception either.
point two:
Posting on a separate builder forum doesn’t preclude posting on a playing forum. I doubt anyone would disappear to a new forum and never post on others.
Hoarding knowledge in fear doesn’t work. Sharing knowledge benefits everyone.
MandoPaul said:
Hoarding knowledge in fear doesn’t work. Sharing knowledge benefits everyone.
Hear, hear!!! 
If several someones hadn’t been kind enough to describe their trials and tribulations with making a whistle on the Web, I’d have had a lot harder row to hoe! And I will share every new thing I learn, as well - I promise!
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
[ This Message was edited by: serpent on 2002-10-18 13:53 ]
On 2002-10-18 10:50, mike.r wrote:
Liam,If for example M.Burke gave detailed description on his bore perturbation methods you can be sure it will be coppied and others will profit.`No one is special´ is one of the C&F guidlines for posting on all forums..it also means we are all equally special(I think).Erik.T,Sandy Jasper,Mac Hoover and many other whistlemakers sort of blend in with everyone else and are always helpful and generous with their knowledge and experience when called upon..OT and On topic. Mike
Mike,
I must respectfully disagree with your objection regarding copying information that makers post on this forum. The point is that no one is forced to post on this forum. If a whistlemaker does not want someone to copy his techniques then he is free not to post if he does not want to.
With respect of their not being special people, I agree, but that does not mean that some people (both players and whistle makers) are not valued for the true depth of knowledge they have. The proposed whistlemaker’s forum is not to give a special place to the professional whistlemaker, but rather a forum where those who are interested in constructing whistles, either for their own use or for sale, can trade ideas and thoughts. Granted this can be done in the basic PWF, but it does often make it hard to find older posts on the topic.
liam,the example I offered was to demonstrate one reason why some makers may not wish to divulge their hard earned knowledge of there craft so freely on the internet…of course, if they do,(and they have)then great.I also suspect many makers are busy enough in the workshop keeping up with orders to have the time to spend on such a proposed forum. Mike
Mike,
The thing is that the proposed forum is not about the professional makers. If they choose to participate, that is great, if not, I am sure there are plenty of people who are interested in experimenting with making whistles and flutes. One of my other insterests in Amateur Astronomy and Telescope Making. The fact that few professionals participate in the email lists devoted to Telescope Making, the lists are very active and a very important source of information for Amateur Telescope Makers. The same could be true for whistle and flute makers.
Wow!! And now we’ve sucked in the pipers, as well! This thing is growing in scope far beyond just whistles, into a Celtic wind instrument engineering forum, which suits me just fine!
Mike, I don’t want to steal anybody’s secrets - that would make my whistles just another cheap, and probably inferior, copy, wouldn’t it? Let me give you a real-life example that’s going on right now…
Although I’m going to continue with the “Village Smithy” whistles (and please, don’t anybody get all pissy because I’m mentioning specifics - it’s a necessary bit of the story, and I doubt it will persuade anyone to instantly jump up and order one)… anyhow, I’ve decided to work with a great deal more precision, and to make the greater part of my whistles tunable. With that in mind, I decided, after much deliberation, to take a clue from my software background, and develop a new whistle design in a “clean room” environment.
Consequently, although I know that my design will be influenced by what I’ve already learnt, I still intend to make it as original as possible. I am using brass, and I am swaging a tuning slide. I am making an interchangeable head. I am using a totally different design for the fipple, blade, and airway, from my prior whistles.
Now, at this juncture, although I have indications that the design I’ve decided upon will actually work, I still don’t know how well it will, so there is still much experimentation to take place. The technicalities such as tube length and hole placement, are solved by experience and the liberal use of a desk calculator. But I’m still left with the as-yet-unanswered question, “Will this fipple and blade design work in this tube? And if so, how well?”
Back to the forum:
Once I get a working model, and have made a few to ensure that model wasn’t a fluke, I would post the entire process to the new forum, so as to save everyone time and effort experimenting with similar ideas. It might also have the effect of somebody saying to me, “Well, Serpent, you’re a dummy, because I could’ve told you it would/wouldn’t work!” But now, the next person to come along and want to try the idea, will already know whether or not!!!
Long-winded again, as usual, but I do hope you get my point(s).
Nobody is “right” or “wrong” here. There will be people who will “borrow” ideas, but, hey, if you post them, you’re effectively giving them away, anyhow, so where’s the harm? There are about nine billion ways to make a serviceable whistle, but not all of them are ideal. If this forum enables someone to enrich his/her life with a whistle made by him/her, then that’s reason enough to make it happen, AFAIC!
Best wishes,
Bill Whedon
On 2002-10-18 15:11, mike.r wrote:
liam,the example I offered was to demonstrate one reason why some makers may not wish to divulge their hard earned knowledge of there craft so freely on the internet…of course, if they do,(and they have)then great.I also suspect many makers are busy enough in the workshop keeping up with orders to have the time to spend on such a proposed forum.>
Mike I was going to say some thing, but I am going back into the workshop,to get some of the back orders out.:roll:
Wizzy
[ This Message was edited by: wizzy on 2002-10-20 12:40 ]