Indeed, thanks and apologies.
Steve B:
K:(no sharps or flats - and no Bs or Fs either) 
dcAE G3A|GEcE G3e|dcAE G3A|GEcE EDD2
For the purposes of ABC notation I suppose you’d have to put C or Am in the key signature but both would be misleading. These are the same notes that I heard described as being in Dm BTW!
Jackie Daly plays a version a tone higher which he says comes from an old Castle Ceili Band set.
Well, given the no Bs or Fs situation, C/Am, G/Em or F/Dm would work. But for the chordally challenged, any accompanists or music theory folks have a suggestion as to what key/mode would be appropriate. I’m having a hard time sorting out where these pentatonic fit into keys/modes.
Thanks and best wishes.
Steve
Is it this one? And what changes do you make—other than the horrid g in the first measure of the last line?
X: 1
T: Throw Away The Keys
R: reel
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: Dmaj
~A3B defa|~a2fd efdB|~A2AB defe|dBAF EFD2:|
~a3f defa|~a2fd efd2|~a3f defe|dBAF EFD2|
~a3f defg|adfd efdB|~A2AB defe|dBAF EFD2||
Thanks and best wishes.
Steve
A small point, out of interest: I’ve heard versions with a sharp c at the beginning of the first and third bar, but natural cs elsewhere. I rather like it. Just an aside, I’m basically with you on this sort of thing, StevieJ.
That’s the one, Steve B - looks about right except for, you know, that note.
I know what you mean… no point in getting too purist about this stuff. I mean while running through the tune on whistle (and it works really well on whistle in this, um, key) I realised that I hear a version in my head that does slip in a high F-natural immediately before the last bar of the second part, and try as I might to dislike it on musicological grounds, I don’t! Very like slipping in a passing high g at the end of the E setting of Toss the Feathers, a tune that otherwise has no Gs.
In fact there is a class of gapped-scale tunes that spring a big surprise on us, usually at the end, with a very emphatic statement of one of the missing notes: Sporting Nell, with a whacking great Fnat (in a common D setting) or Gnat (E setting), of First Month of Summer (a G) at the beginning of this version.
It’s a hazardous undertaking trying to shoehorn these tunes into an existing musical system… be it Western music, or church modes, or Greek modes, or anything else as far as I know. The Cloon is a very good example of what Ó Cannain in his book called “a tune with complex tonality”. If you added up the note values using his system I guess the “tonal centres” that emerged would be G (all those long notes and the tune’s highest note) and D (endings). A challenge for accompanists I think - lots of open chord voicings called for!
Edit: PS1 I must track down Henebry’s writings, which I’ve never seen.
PS2 Sorry for the catastrophic thread drift, spiderjames… 
Jackie Daly plays a version a tone higher which he says comes from an old Castle Ceili Band set.
I thought of mentioning the Castle version yesterday and had a run through it. I did learn the whole Castle set because we played it for the sets in Gleeson’s at the time. Jackie introduced it to us there. I have the Castle recording here if you like to hear it.
S1 I must track down Henebry’s writings, which I’ve never seen.
I can do you a PDF of the ‘handbook’ on CD if you like.
There’s a shorter publication of Henebry “Irish Music: Being an examination of the Matter of Scales, Modes, and Keys, with Practical Instructions and Examples for Players” (1903) at http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/book/irish-music-henebry
Just started through it but was struck by his contention, early on in the booklet, that, “…The great body of our music is constructed on a scale whereof four of the intervals differ from the modern scale and three coincide with it. And a numerous class of tunes, and they [are] the most important, are composed on a scale having but two interval coincidences with the modern and five differences….An effort at closer expression is often evidenced by the number of accidentals found in modern Irish music. And if the occurrences were collected it would be found that those accidentals actually are inserted most commonly where there is a difference in the two systems. But the accidentals proved no remedy, for they had only modern value and hence were always out of tune with the Irish scale at least a quarter of a tone.”
This seems to be a clear suggestion that what we play today in sessions has been modified from the original structure of Irish music and made more consistent with mainstream European or American musical styles. Not saying that’s a bad thing, just sayin’…
All of which goes back to the OP’s question (remember the OP? —and thanks SpiderJames for letting us go on like this with your thread) of “which version should I learn?”
So, do we have categories like “Original Irish”, Irish pre-WWI/vaudeville, Irish theater music and Michael Coleman recordings, BothyBand/Planxty Irish music, etc. ?
I clearly have too little background in “the tradition” to wrap my head around this stuff, but I greatly appreciate Steviej and Gumby’s insights.
Best wishes.
Steve
Do the oldest recordings we have reflect these older scales and intervals? Maybe someone knows of some online links we can use for comparison?
So, do we have categories like “Original Irish”, Irish pre-WWI/vaudeville, Irish theater music and Michael Coleman recordings, BothyBand/Planxty Irish music, etc. ?
I don’t think it would be useful to operate that sort of divisions. Things evolve and change, for better or for worse, and co-exist in various forms. First of all you should probably read Henebry in the context of his time and place and also consider there are some odd and dogmatic corners in his viewpoints.
Then you do need to realise a lot of traditional music was the popular music of the people who were into that sort of thing and it was not segregated from other kinds of popular music of any given time and place, I remember a friendly old lady who had a repertoire of fine traditional old songs who would not have any qualms singing ‘Red River Valley’ when called upon to contribute a song to the night’s entertainment, so you can expect to come all sort of elements in it and around it. The discussion of what can be called ‘traditional’ can be had, as it has been many times in many forms and on many platforms, but I am not sure it is very useful to do so. Not in the context of your day to day music practice anyway.
Cross posting..
Do the oldest recordings we have reflect these older scales and intervals?
Henebry himself was one of the earlier users of recording technology and his (Ediphone cylinder) recordings survive. Some recordings of the singers he uses as examples in his ‘Handbook’ can still be heard (and mighty stuff too!). I have some of them on tape but I am not sure much of it is on-line. The Henebry collection is held in the University of Cork as far as I know.
Add: some stuff on the cylinders : here @ ITMA
It’s all good. I like a good debate 
The answer I think is to learn the ones I like. I’ll balance that against whatever versions are popular at any sessions I have the nerve to join.
Unfortunately it looks like the only sound recording in the sources that Mr Gumby linked has piano accompaniment - just what Henebry says, in para. 11 of the paper than Steve linked, in not traditional.
Carrying on the discussion with spiderjames’ blessing…
Thanks. Are you reading it on the little photos of pages provided there or have you succeeded in downloading the whole thing?
This seems to be a clear suggestion that what we play today in sessions has been modified from the original structure of Irish music and made more consistent with mainstream European or American musical styles.
You don’t have to look very far back to appreciate the truth of that - just listen to the intonation of the older generation of fiddlers (those in their 80s and 90s today, and their departed peer-group). Some examples:
Using the little photos—but I had to dig out the reading glasses and move the screen close enough that my excited breath clouds some sentences…
Best wishes.
Steve
Some browsers let you zoom the page. CTRL+ in Foxpro makes the box bigger and the page still scrolls within it.
I’m not sure I am learning much more than the wisdom of this board has taught me in the past - much of it covered by what StevieJ just posted.
I truly appreciate this discussion bringing in Father Henebry’s work. I encountered him fifteen years ago and have been gnawing away at the knot of many of his contentions ever since. ITMA’s scan of the ‘booklet’ is valuable, but the larger book is available although quite rare here in America. I believe I used the Inter-Library Loan search facility available stateside to find a copy to read. I waited three months to get my hands on it for a brief three weeks! Craig Fischer found a copy at the University of Melbourne. I wonder if ITMA could locate a copy to scan. . .
Bob
The Handbook does come up second hand, the last one I saw was around €150, which I didn’t have to spend (in fact the bookseller had a whole collection of trad music related book I could easily have spent a lot of money on. A library clearance.).
A company was selling a CD Rom version, PDF/scan, a few years ago for around $20 or so. I have a copy (and was given another soon after I got that).
Just checked: It’s still on Amazon.com for $20 : here
Done.
Thank you, Mr. G.
Bob
I’ll expand the drift a bit further adding a sideline to a sideline of the discussion:
Steve mentioned the Humours of Toomagh above, in the Castle Ceili Band’s version that we both learned from Jackie Daly, although on different occasions. I got it when Jackie and myself were regulars of a group playing for sets on the Sunday nights for many years and ‘the Castle set’ was a great going for the third figure of the set (we used Salamanca/Banshee/Sailor’s Bonnet as well for the same figure).
Anyway, I dug out the old Castle lp to lift the clip for Steve and was listening to it a bit along early in the morning. There’s such wildness and joy in the playing, they’re brilliant. Great start to the day.
So here it is: The Castle set : Throw it around/Shepherd’s Daughter/Humours of Toomagh
Note the first tune is another one that you’d very easily slip a few passing F’s into while they’re easily avoided.
Great stuff! What a band, and what a line-up (thanks to Mr. G for this info):
John Dwyer, Sean Keane, Joe Ryan, John Kelly (fiddles), Mick Tubridy & Mick O Connor (flutes), Paddy O Brien (box), Bridie Lafferty (piano) and Bernard Carey (drums)
No wonder Jackie D loves this set. I have a recording of him playing it at a session at Willie Week 1985 in company with another Mick O’Connor, the banjo man, and most of what would become Altan. It’s great but it sounds measured in comparison with the original!
The Castle was definitely something else. The Comhaltas lp aside, there’s another recording, from 1973 in a slightly slimmed down line-up (and there’s some great clips on yer tube: Castle Ceili Band : Big Pat/Lucky in Love/Up against the Buachalawns).
It was a great thrill to be present when there was a one off reunion of sorts a few years ago with surviving members John Dwyer, Mick O Connor, Mick Tubridy, Seán Keane and his brother James (who at some point replaced Paddy O Brien in the original line up) with John Kelly sitting in for his father, Liam O Connor replacing Joe Ryan, Mick Hand at the keyboard and Aidan Vaughan at the drumkit. They were still flying it!
