[ This Message was edited by: Coyote on 2001-11-26 12:42 ]
[ This Message was edited by: coyote on 2001-11-26 12:40 ]
Right so champ, the music itself is full of subtle harmonies and layers of rhythm, many instrument can provide their own harmonies. The music does no t really need any acompaniment. Sure, Denis Cahill above is one of the few who does add a layer of his own but he is one of the few and Hayes’ fiddleplayeing wouldn’t be any worse without him. The fact remains that most acompanist, even the good ones, have very little to add, and often get in the way of what is really important.
On 2001-11-26 03:42, Peter Laban wrote." The fact remains that most acompanist, even the good ones, have very little to add, and often get in the way of what is really important."
Peter,
Champ and Coyote have stated the facts but personal taste and subjective opinion can only be fiction.An unadorned melody does have a lot of beauty I agree,and perhaps you are still stirring, but as an accompanist I cannot agree with you that I have little to add.Peace and harmony,Mike 
Ok, that wasn’t a great choice of words. What I meant to say is that the music in itself does not need the backing. I still think most accompaniment obscures many subtleties in the music, imposing a structure onto the music that inhibits the freedom of the player.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-11-26 10:02 ]
On 2001-11-25 21:37, Champ wrote:
To suggest that traditional Irish tunes consisted of one note at time melodies is nonsense.… to somehow imply that this is a more pure or true way play them is nonsense
Champ, you’re talking about two different kinds of “nonsense” here.
When traditional players pass on a tune to another player, they do pass on single-note melody line. These single-line melodies are what you find in printed collections of traditional music - even if in recent years chords are given for the accompanist.
A single melody line is all you can play on a whistle, or lilt (let’s leave Tibetain throat singers out of this). But, of course, drones and double stops and the like will occur in the playing of pipers and fiddlers and concertinas - I don’t know in which post of mine you saw any mention of one-note at a time. And of course there is an implied harmony (if you read my post, you’ll see that I mentioned that the melody player has to provide all the rhythm and harmony.)
As my to “somehow implying” that playing one note at a time is more “pure” or “true”, this is not an implication on my part, it is an inference on yours.
I very much enjoy playing with guitar, bouzouki or whatever accompaniment. (Unlike Peter I don’t play the Irish organ.) But I stand by my point that a melody player has to be able to do the whole job by himself or herself when required - to play a dance tune solo and have it provide everything the dancer needs. This is not the case in most other Western music traditions.
So, my initial post was only to point out that the harmony lines I suggested to Bob didn’t come from thinking about what “the guitarist” would do. I just looked at the melody and thought about what would fit if a fiddler was playing Music in the Glen and I wanted to fit in with him or her.
[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2001-11-26 11:01 ]
On 2001-11-26 09:35, Peter Laban wrote:
I still think most accompaniment obscures many subtleties in the music, imposing a structure onto the music that inhibits the freedom of the player.
Now that is a good choice of words!
OK, I think I’m on the verge of learning something..
In the first line of Music in the Glen, the fiddle plays
|: ~G2BG EGDC | B,DGB AGAB |
And I can’t play the low Cs or Bs on the soprano D whistle…
The SteveJ options are all OK, but I’m trying to understand the chord issue. I don’t play any chord instruments (only whistle and trombone) so I can see how I need to do some remedial chord review.
If I want to play a note on the whistle other than low C or low B, a simple choice of raising it an octave seems to work but I was hoping to understand structurally whats going on, what the other options are in general (not just this tune).
So if I understand you correctly, Steve, is if the fiddle plays a C, then my choices for that note in soprano D whistle are any other note in that chord. And to figure out that chord I need to know what key the tune is in.
If this is correct, thats a big help - all I have to do is break the code on how to figure out what key the tunes are in, and what chords go with that key; which I expect will be straight forward, I just hadn’t bothered before because I didn’t see the need - I just played the melody and ignored chords.
Am I on the right track?
On 2001-11-26 11:16, Bobj wrote:
If this is correct, thats a big help - all I have to do is break the code on how to figure out what key the tunes are in, and what chords go with that key; which I expect will be straight forward, I just hadn’t bothered before because I didn’t see the need - I just played the melody and ignored chords.Am I on the right track?
Yes Bob, you are.
Figuring out what key a tune is in is not usually too hard. The final note of the tune is usually your best clue. In most Western music, this, plus the key signature (number of sharps and flats) will tell you what key the tune is in.
Irish trad is a little more complex because tunes are often in the older system of “modes” rather than straight Western major or minor keys, and this means that the key signature doesn’t work the same way. For example, a tune such as The Mug of Brown Ale is in the mode of “A dorian” will have one sharp, whereas your average guitarist will tell you it’s in “A minor”. But the key signature of A minor would have no sharps… so you need to be aware of the difference between “minor key” and “dorian mode”.
Some tunes also have notes missing from the scale - so-called pentatonic or hexatonic tunes - and this also has serious implications for harmonizing the tunes. A tune like Christmas Eve is pentatonic - no Fs or Cs. So from a strict harmonic standpoint any use of chords such as D major (which contains a F#) or A minor (contains a C-nat) would be inappropriate.
Some tunes end on surprising notes - some for example end on G, and have one sharp, but are definitely not in G major. They are in a mode based on A or D!
But, leaving all those complexities aside for the moment, familiarizing yourself with the basic 3-note major and minor chords (triads - consisting of the 1st 3rd and 5th degrees of the scale) will be of immense help to you.
I’d suggest buying a guitar and fooling around with it. Most people learn guitar by learning chord shapes, so just learn what notes make up what chord. Or use a keyboard - possibly simpler.
Just bear in mind that there are complicating factors in Irish trad tunes, without getting hung up on them when you start.
I predict that Lee Marsh is going to chime in on this thread and suggest you buy Chris Smith’s book on Celtic Backup. I haven’t seen it, but Lee always recommends it in these situations.
[Edited to clarify certain remarks and fix typos]
[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2001-11-26 12:05 ]
The real problem with substituting notes for a melody or even chord substitution is that it really is dependent on experience, taste, knowledge of music theory and instinct, not to mention a good ear. Being really strong in any of the above will guide you to a workable solution but a combination of the above would be ideal.
Simply jumping to the next octave would put an agogic accent on the substituted note in question and may or may not be desirable. If it sounds weird, then perhaps the entire phrase would have to be transposed. If that leads to the phrase sounding weird relative to the phrase before and after then a lot more work might have to be done.
Also, if the note to be substituted is not part of the melodic/harmonic ‘skeleton’, it might be possible to just not play it - especially if it is on a weak beat. This would be true especially of notes which are really part of a written out ornament.
This subject is really difficult to talk about here as it really needs extensive examples and almost a person-to-person tutorial. It also really needs to be treated on a case by case basis until the student gets it.
A good start to substituting notes (or improvisation/composition) would be to listen to how good vocalists do verse repeats. Very often, to fit in the different words, rhythmic and melodic substitutions have to be made. Vocalists also sometimes vary repeats of choruses, just to keep it interesting. It may be as simple as an elongation of the note or as complex as a Stevie Wonder melisma.
Anyway, a very difficult subject to talk about if not in person. My two cents.
On 2001-11-26 11:16, Bobj wrote:
…
The SteveJ options are all OK, but I’m trying to understand the chord issue. I don’t play any chord instruments (only whistle and trombone) so I can see how I need to do some remedial chord review…
Bobj,
There is an excellent book that outlines some 15 different approaches to celtic harmony: Celtic Back-up for All Instrumentalists by Chris Smith. Below is a brief review, from an earlier post I made regarding this book. The book gives you a lot of harmony options: drones, walking drones, descants, etc. but also discusses how to maintain the integrity of the original tune, how to enhance the tune, versus distract from it. So here’s my ealier review.
Review: Celtic Back-Up for all Instrumentalists by Chris Smith.
Published by Mel Bay and includes Compact disk.
This is the first tutor I've seen on playing Irish music by ear. IMHO, A book that should be on every beginning session player's must read book: a tutorial, a guide, and a reference.
Chris' stated purpose for the book is to help the instrumental session musician "to play tasteful, interesting, imaginative, and supportive improvised accompaniment".
The book covers theory, celtic rhythms, celtic harmonies, Keys and their modes. It provides nice notation and explanations but also integrates training the ear to hear the Irish. Exercises and explanations include hearing the various rhythms associated with the various forms such as hornpipes, jigs, reels, etc. It has a wide variety of harmony approaches organized in a 15 point plan and exercises for each of the approaches. The CD has 99 tracks including tracks that just demonstrate each of the rhythms, each of the 15 approaches, the tones in each of the keys, the tones ineach of the modes, as well as some practice sets of tunes.
One of the foci of the book is on being able to accompany songs in sessions where you are hearing the melody for the first time. Playing by ear, what to look for, what does it sound like, what does it mean, what to avoid.
The book is written primarily for stringed accompanyment like guitar, bouzouki, mandolin, piano but applies to any instrumental accompanyment. This is the best twenty buck's I've spent on learning Irish music. The book is available at the Whistle Shop on-line and Lark in the Morning. Links follow:
Celtic](http://www.thewhistleshop.com/catalog/tutorials/irishmusicsongbooks/celticbackup/celticba.htm%3ECeltic) BackUp at The Whistle Shop
Celtic](http://www.larkinam.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/BookRecVidFolder/BookFolder/BookLessonsGuitar%3ECeltic) BackUp at Lark in The Morning
Weather you’re playing melody, harmony, or rhythym, solo or in-mass; its still a folk/traditional genre where ‘just folks’ are usually more concerned about enjoying the music and sharing some time.
\
Enjoy Your Music,
Lee Marsh
[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2001-11-26 13:38 ]
On 2001-11-26 13:35, LeeMarsh wrote:
Bobj,There is an excellent book that outlines some 15 different approaches to celtic harmony: Celtic Back-up for All Instrumentalists by Chris Smith.
Hee hee, Bob, told you so…
Stevej,
I don’t believe I read all those posts and missed your two lines predicting my post on Chris’s book. 
)
LOL
I sits here, shakin’ me ‘ead backs and fort, grinnin’ and t’inkin’ “I must be gettin’ old 'n sea nile t’be so predictsable” .
SteveJ, Lee: That is really funny! 
LMAO!
I got Chris Smith’s book, and found that it seems to have lots of info on modes and chords and theoretical musicianship. Right now however, I didn’t find it too useful as a whistler because I don’t feel the need to be aware of chord changes and modes as much as a guitarist. I gave up reading it after a while when it got too deep into chords and progressions and all. I’d imagine I might reread it sometime in the future though.
On the discussion on the importance of accompaniment, I do agree with Peter that solo playing best express the subtlities. I find that particularly educational, and endeavour to emulate that in my playing. However, I feel that accompaniment (especially chordal) helps make the music more palatable to those uninitiated to trad celtic music (as I was once).
Even now, I find that I cannot stomach some sean-nos and slow airs played pure-trad style that go without some accompaniment. I have no idea where the melody ends and the embellishment begins. The ad lib note values confuse me further. Plus I don’t speak Gaelic so I’ve no idea what is being sung. It just sounds rather sorrowful to be at best, but its just a feeling thing. I can’t get the melody unless I heard an accompanied version.
Whew, entering this thread kinda late. Just wanted to mention that this example below (provided by StevieJ) was how the Bothy Band (at least the pipes and the flute) opted to do it.
<>
For Music in the Glen I’d suggest these possibilities for starters:jump an octave where needed -
|: ~G2BG EGDc | bDGB AGAB |<>
Thanks Lee Marsh - I plan to order the book.
To me this problem is a little like the issue of where to take breaths - a necessary evil which can be used as a stylistic element. Earlier in this thread StevieJ listed a bunch of strategies with examples. None are useable for every situation - you basically have to try out your alternatives and decide which works best for the tune. Since this choice is based on your personal esthetics, it is part of personalizing the tune, of imparting your own signature, just as is deciding where to ornament, or to breathe.