This flute, item #2587360233 is NOT as it is described.
Charles Nicholson DID NOT make flutes. He played them. They were made by others.
And…read closely…it’s not actually MADE by Nicholson nor Clementi (who was the only, before Prowse went on his own to make the flutes marked as C.Nicholson’s Improved). It is a publishing house named George & Mabry.
There is another eBay listing for a flute proclaimed as a Rudall made for this junk house.
Do Not Bid on It!
Frankly, I’m surprised and disgusted several other names on the bid list have put money toward this fraud.
Knowing full well that Nicholson didn’t make flutes, I’d been tracking this to see how high it would go. I was wondering if you’d proclaim it a fraud and didn’t feel significantly knowledgable to do so myself. I’ll have to go check what it’s up to now!
It’s interesting that Dave points it out as a fraudulent posting (which I have no doubt it is), and then when I went to peek, the photos are all fuzzy. Like they’re hiding something!
At least the bids haven’t hit the reserve yet, so no one’s yet going to be out any money.
I give you information supplied by seller. I quote:
1-the flute is probably as original, apart from the two repairs i mention on ebay…with all finger holes closed, and the slide opened 12mm (approximately), it plays D, tested on my electronic tuner…I’m not a flautist,but i am a musician. I have friends who can play flute…and they agree it plays well…The case i’m sure is original, but i did have to repair it…i re-lined inside with cotton velvet, which was originally green baize(very worn), but i copied the layout exactly…the box is of mahogany…and i also repaired the lock and found a key…it’s a beautiful instrument, it needs to go to a good home…the postage by, international signed for, will be £12.00 sterling
2- this work (overhaul) has been done recently…new corking and re-padded…also the original case has been repaired and re-lined with cotton velvet , copying the original pattern …i also found a key and repaired the lock
Whao David, I accept that the seller has picked up on the style and used it as the makers name, but does this mean we should boycott it as a fraud. The seller does say he was told it was made by Nicholson, and may just be trying to pass on what he can.
I have a flute very similar to this, no name four piece. The keys are also marked AL (Alexander Liddel) and it is a very nice flute. The keys are not Sterling silver (ie Hallmarked) and I would date it nearer 1860-80 than 1840 but £500 would be a fair price for this flute and I don’t think you should be encouraging bidders to withdraw. The only thing that bothered me was the work round the lip plate which is obviously not original.
I’ve no interest in this sale by the way, just trying to balance the picture.
The last time I saw the suggestion that Nicholson was a flutemaker was in the interview of Mr P.Olwell the link to which was given in this forum last week .I was astonished that Mr Olwell should suggest such a thing .
I am not too sure that Clementi made Nicholson pattern flutes rather than having them made for him be the Prowse family .
I would not be at all surprised if the flute illustrated was supplied by the Prowse workshop ( How can one tell from such poor photographs ).They were supplying all over the place, I suspect .
I am surprised that Mr Migoya excitedly calls the flute a fake .What ? , a fake George & Manby ?( I wish people would get the name right ! ).Does it matter that the seller has been wrongly told that it was made by a flautist ?.
I am sorry that Mr Migoya chooses to call rubbish the flutes marketed by George & Manby , of which I am sure there were many bought in from the professionals supplying music houses at that time .I had the impression from his remarks last week that he is yet to see one .
Why does Kenr confuse Sterling silver with hallmarking ?.It was unusual for sterling silver keys to be hallmarked and still is .Of course Monzani and Hill spent their time prettying up their flutes with marks instead of spending that time getting the flutes to work well .
George & Manby were operating in 1835 ,as were the Prouses and many others .I wonder why the flute in question should not date from this period .
How does it play ?I would be very surprised if it is not worth £500 - perhaps I should have a go !
In the Title: “Flute wooden 8keyed by C.Nicholson inc case”
– Hmmm…seems to me this is saying the flute IS a Nicholson. Is is not.
“This beautiful cocus wood flute with sterling silver spoon keys was I’m told, made by C.Nicholson…”
– Really? Told by whom exactly? Nicholson did NOT make flutes and most assuredly NOT this one. And this dope doesn’t even know that it’s Charles Nicholson.
"… for George Manby of Fleet Street, London(retailers). "
– This band of idiots are called George AND (&) Manby and were publishers, etc. The bought cheap flutes and stamped their names on them, like other retailers of the day. Good flutes? Maybe. A Nicholson flute? Hardly.
“The same as made for Clementi & Co. London.”
– NO is it not. Clementi had his Nicholson flutes made by one person: Thomas Prowse (not Prouse, Mr. Andy) Sr. (That after Monzani’s firm was too difficult to work with and Astor didn’t want to).
*“I also feel that the wooden barrel on the slide has been replaced, but skillfully, using cocus wood”
– Honestly. This assessment from someone who admitedly knows nothing about antique flutes.
“A.L. is stamped under all the spoon keys.”
– Yes. He made lots of keys for people, and even a flute or two. But for Nicholson? Hardly. My guess is this is a cheap copy (spindled headpiece and all) of a Clementi-Nicholson.
The foot piece phot is NOT of an authentic Nicholson-Clementi
– How do I know? Here’s a link to a photo of my own (stamped and everything). See for yourself…Clementi made the foot pieces with a bulge for the key lever pins. (the upper photo is my Clementi, the one below it belongs to Terry McGee). http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Nicholson_development.htm
Happy now?
Why am I upset? Because I spend a great deal of time working on antique flutes, dealing with people like yourselves to ensure good quality flutes are out there and people can ask for reliable advice. Shiesting such as this is nothing more than hurtful to the rest of us, and mostly to the sap who will pay several hundreds or thousands for what turns out to be, sadly, a fake.
Okay I think we all agree the seller of this flute has been badly advised. But instead of branding it a fake - and lambasting anybody who dares suggest it might actually be a decent flute for the money, why didn’t David Migoya give the benefit of his knowledge to the seller who could then put some amendments into the description so that the “poor saps” bidding on it aren’t misled?
I agree with Andrew - Does it matter that the seller has been wrongly told that it was made by a flautist ?
Give the seller some decent information and if he ignores you then you can label him a sheister!
I see…so posting inaccuracies on eBay (not some bulletin board…but on the international eBay where the even less educated will toss their money…and where there is a long history of fraud in musical instruments, among other things) is acceptable?
I, for one, say not.
If you dont’ know what you’ve got BEFORE telling the world what it most certainly is NOT, then don’t advertise it.
Here you go: I have what I think is a Rudall & Rose. Don’t worry, my reserve is only $3000 because that’s what I see Rudalls go for. Bid with confidence as I’m told this is the same kind of flute made for that famous house of flutemakers, Rudall & Rose. It’s in pristine condition and I’m told plays fabulously, just like the Rudall & Rose that I think it is. I’m also told that anyone who pays this much for something it is not will feel sorry for me for misrepresenting this flute because I’m a total idiot, not a crook trying to capitalize on your ignorance. Of course, I could have done a google search on “Rudall Rose” and found a shitload of experts to ask about my flute BEFORE I decided to misrepresent it on eBay, but I was too freakin’ lazy to do that.
oh…and now that the seller has this benefit of information from people who know (by the way…I emailed the seller with this dastardly bit of fact-checking truth last week,. as have others since)…there’s been no change to their description or title of the instrument for sale.
Well the flute can hardly be a fake Nicholson if ( as we all know ) there were no Nicholsons . And it is not a fake George & Manby .
The vendor has been advised on the flute by Mr David Williams , flutemaker, who may well have called the flute a " Nicholson " from the general style .
George & Manby are "idiot stampers of poor flutes ", are they ?
Have you ever seen one , Mr Migoya ? where do you get the idea from .Who can you have been advised by ?
Yes, I managed to type the name wrongly one in three times , as we can see if we look just north of here .What luck that you had only to correct me in respect of the one mistake instead of the three it would have been had your impertinence been justified , Mr cleverclogs Migoya .Two in three things right would be considered pretty good for an American !
No Mr Migoya it was not only Thomas Prowse senior who is credited with supplying Clementi with " Nicholson Flutes .
Finally , are you sure that all the Prowse “Nicholsons” had the rounded bulge on the footjoint ?
Mr. Kirby, please. Spare me.
The flute on eBay…whether advised by Mr. Williams or not…is not as advertised. It is not what it claims to be…even claims to be like.
End of story.
If you wish to have a bargain, that’s surely your business. By all means, put your money onto the table and enjoy.
I’m merely trying to spare those on list who might think it something worthwhile, or a bargain. You can, or not, take the helpful warning.
And yes, I’ve seen George & Manby flutes just fine. And I for one don’t like them. Too…if they were worth their while in any international collection, why not find them in any edition of Langwills (the oft-cited bible of makers, dealers, stampers and purveyors, even those of disrepute)?
And why is it that the ONLY flutes marked George & Manby on eBay ever are both advertised as something other than what they are? One claims to be a Nicholson flute…the other a Rudall. If either were true, then the names G & M would be no where to be found on those flutes.
Based on his history, experience, and knowledge about flutes, especially classic and antique flutes, I,m gonna bet on David. If he says it’s a fake, I ain’t wasting my hard earned pennies on it. No matter whose feelings get hurt.
I wonder if Ken and Andrew know who David Migoya is. He’s one of the world’s foremost experts in… Rudall&Rose flutes, and all aspects of flute history. He used to be one of the best sources for antique and modern flutes that you could trust, and still sells them occasionally at http://www.fyfer-restorations.com
If David Migoya says it’s a fake, then it’s a fake. You don’t have to worry about him contacting this eBay vendor. If he posted the information here, it’s because he already contacted the vendor with no results.
In boards like these, there is a lot of opinion and emotion, but very little true knowledge; it’s the nature of the Internet. David is the exception to the rule; if he says it’s so, you can believe it is.
And i say that they probably don’t know who David is. If David says he contacted the seller and got no answer, i believe him. Even if he hadn’t said so, i would have assumed that he did.
If he contacted the seller and gave him information, the seller isn’t under-knowledged anymore, is he?
Many of us know who Migoya is and have opinions of his attitude, choice of words, and propensity for picking on the little guy (or someone he deems as such), regardless. It’s not always about knowledge or lack thereof, either.
I appreciate the information that the flute is not what the seller thinks it is. That is beside the point.
