Using a Tuner

Uilleann Pipes
21

djm, no need to apologize or you’ll get us all started! It’s not a simple thing…I’m still learning thanks to probing question like on this board.

The simple answer is this: Tuning to a guitar tuner, you’ll be in B Equal. But so what? The difference is imaterial, IMO. Your B chanter is tuned to Just already (the toneholes are sized and spaced accordingly within itself). The chanter reed needs to be set in the seat to accommodate this perfect B of the chanter. The drones then need to be tuned pure to the 4th or 5th of the chanter. Either one is going to be close enough. Most pipers do the 5th. On a D set, I do know pipers who prefer tuning the D drones to the G on the chanter, but very few.

With A=440 being the standard, the bass drone on your B pipes should be B=61.735 c.p.s., the baritone would be B=123.471, and the tenor B=246.942.

The point of your question is tuning a B set to modern standard pitch so you can play with others. Since the chanter is sized to standard modern pitch, so you simply need the right reed set in the seat at the proper depth. This would show up as pretty much right on with all the cheap guitar tuners, even though they are geared for Equal. The difference seems imaterial to me. Other variables will cause it to be off more than the difference. The cheap guitar tuners just don’t have the micro tolerance of the more expensive tuners. The red and green lights (or needle) are only in a general range. You wouldn’t use these for tuning a piano. BTW, the reason why they work so well for guitars is because the tuner is geared to get the compromise right for you, ie, if the saddle and nut on the guitar are right (and the frets and sounding length). Otherwise, as any guitar player knows, you can tune the strings all pure, but that only sounds good on one chord. The next chord sounds off and you have to retune. Pure, or Just, is only good for one key or one basic chord on fixed instruments. It’s tolerable in a couple other related keys too. A well-tuned guitar is a compromise tuning…“a series of tolerable imperfections.” So is a piano. They are both chromatic with 12 semitones.

The long answer, as I understand it so far, and if only to bore you, is this: A=440Hz is only 440Hz at A49 on the piano keyboard. 49 means the 49th key up from the bottom. A=440Hz is near the center of your hearing range. It’s right above what we call middle C on a piano…the piano being the instrument that contains the lowest and highest hearing ranges (for most people). In Equal Temperament, to find the proper number for A#/Bb50 is to multiply 440 x 1.0594631. That means the next note up from A49 would be A#(or Bb)=466.164. 440 c.p.s. means cycles per second. In Equal, all notes are equally off 1.0594631 cents from each other. There is one hundred cents between semitones and 1200 in an octave. Since octaves are pure, the A above A=440 would be A=880. It’s only between the octaves that we compromise. Every octave of evey note on the piano is pure, so this offness is the same within every octave.

I hope this is right. Someone will correct me if it isn’t, or I’ll reread this and see the error myself! :wink:

22

Lorenzo, thanks. I know some of this, but am still trying to put all the pieces together. e.g. 1 cycles per second (cps) = 1 Hertz (Hz). Also, my tuner is a Seiko ST-909, with a physical arm on the meter, not lights or LCD, and can also be manually recalibrated per note (if yer nuts enough).

But you have given me one of the “magic” numbers I need to move forward, which is “1.0594631”. So to continue your example, and to ensure I have this correct in my little brain:

A49 = 440 Hz
A# = 440 x 1.0594631 = 466.164 Hz
B = 440 x 1.0594631 x 1.0594631 = 493.883 Hz
etc.

Similarly confused and heading in the opposite direction, the G below A = 440 Hz would be

G = A[=9]49[/size=9] @ 440 Hz / 1.0594631 = 415.305 Hz
F = 440 / 1.0594631 / 1.0594631 = 391.995 Hz
etc.

If you can’t tell, I am arithmatically challenged. Numbers make my brain hurt. But if I have enough information, I can program a spreadsheet, once I know what the calculations are, to work out the whole list.

If the difference between all half-notes (semitones) is a constant 1.0594631 in equal intonation (temperment), I should be able to work out what all the frequencies are for any pitch of UPs. Once I can find the equivalent note values in just intonation, I can quickly calculate the difference between each and determine what the difference would be on any guitar tuner.

If I can figure out how to do it, I am thinking of retuning one of my synths to see what the difference is between equal intonation and UP tuning. I know that some notes like Cnat on a D set are detuned a bit to match the drones better, so playing each note against an appropriate drone should show where the sweet spot on UPs should be.

I believe that at the end of this exercise I will find out that the differences are microtonal, beyond my ear to distinguish, that I am being totally anal, and should have spent the time and effort practising piping.
:smiley:

djm

23

All of these calculations and fine tuning points are of good value, but I have to wonder what they used to tune thier pipes to in the past centuries? For me, there comes a point where you have to break away from the entrapments of modern technology and use your own ear to determine what sounds good to you…unless, of course, it is in your future to play with your local symphony orchestra. Personally, it annoys me to no end watching someone take an hour to fine tune their axe to a portable tuner, then play a chord or note, and start all over again.

24

djm, in your calculation, you asked if going the other direction would work. Yes, but you meant G#, not G. :wink: 440 divided by 1.0594631 = 415.305 c.p.s. for G#.

Joseph, that’s why I consider all this fuss about Just vs. Equal to be a little silly, at least for the UP. Other variances have more of an affect than the difference in temperaments…like weather, reed scrape, staples, cane sources, bag preassure, bore design, fingering alternative (closed/open holes), etc., etc. Imagine counting 1 beat in 5 seconds vs. O beats in 5 seconds. Eventually there’s going to be some beat…even where you think its been tuned Just. Pressure will do it. That what you look for in Equal 5ths vs. Just 5ths. 4ths are a little more, not much.

Just to eleaberate a little, there’s several ways to tune an octave (the 12 semitones) on any fixed chromatic instrument. On stringed instruments you can usually hit 2 or 3 notes at the same time (more with piano). On flute type instruments, where you can only hit one note at a time, you’d space and size the holes to a tuner, or to another fixed instrument like a piano. You can use a machine that has already been calibrated, or tune by ear, listening to the natural intonation and the beats. When setting the octave scale on a piano, I use the F to F method around middle C. Some use A to A.

Whatever, there are a series of 3rd, 4ths, and 5ths in this octave. This is called the Temperament Octave. Starting with middle C, I could tune it to a fork or a machine. After that, I use a series of 5ths and 4ths, back and forth, all the way up the octave. So the lower F tunes to middle C to, then G to C, then D to G, then A to D, then E to A, then the B to E, then the low F to the high F. At this point I cheat and tune the Bb to the high F since it’s an easy 5th. This completes all the white keys, and one black. On to the rest of the black keys. The white B has already been tuned, so the F# is tuned to the B, then the C# to the F#. The G# is tuned to the C# and the Eb tuned to the G#.

Now the big momet!!! The Bb has already been tuned to the high F…it can’t be changed. The moment of truth has arrived. I hit the Eb to the Bb. It had better be right using Equal. If it isn’t right (sounds sour or painful), the tuner must start all over. The most common problem why it doesn’t come out right is because the tuner tuned the 4ths and 5ths too pure.

The system of tuning 12 semitones jumps back and forth between 4ths and 5ths. They are used because they are the purist and are the notes with the widest spread in the octave…where the ear hears tuning problems easiest. The 6ths are related to the 3rds. A 3rd above is a 6th below…same note only an octove lower/higher. Like the 3rds, 6ths are the most impure in the Equal Temperament Octave Scale. The 7ths just aren’t used in tuning, nor are the 2nds.

Guess what? If I had tuned every 4th and 5th pure, with no beats nor compomise, the last interval of Bb to Eb would have been off by 24 cents. That ¼ of a semitone!!! Best to have every 4th and 5th off a little than to have this one off a huge amount. It’s this way with any chromatic fixed instrument. And…this 24 cents…that’s why the 12 semitones are off by about 2 cents. 2x12=24.

But, in another system of tuning, I could have started out with the low F and tuned the octave in pure 3rds (major and minor 3rds). After completing all these intervals up through the octave, the last one would come out 42 cents off. There is no way to tune a fixed chromatic instrument, with 12 semitones, strickly to Just. It can’t be done! Even with a flute, oboe, sax, or even a chromatic uilleann pipe chanter – that would be a lot of key levers!! Tuning the last interval on any of these woodwinds would present the same problem. With chromatic, every tonehole has to be adjusted a little to sound better against a growing number of notes. But a whistle, with only six toneholes can be pure like the diatonic accordian. The other notes are corrected by alternate fingerings. I has only a few fixed notes that have to sound good against each other. The F# is the biggest problem. It’s a 3rd up from D. It’s off the most. It also is subject to greater pressure differences. Either the upper or lower F# sounds best, usually not both. Any 3rd is off the most, even on a Equal tuned piano or guitar. The less strings, like a violin, the less you have to worry. The other notes get corrected by a fretless board. Not so with guitar (six strings and fixed frets).

25

For the mandolin family, guitars, electric basses and the other fretted instruments I will use a tuner to get the instrument within the ball park. The rest I do by ear.

Non fretted instruments, violin, viola, cello, bass etc, I usually tune one note to the tuner (the A, and the D on cello and viola) and the rest of the strings by ear.

My pipes, I tune the A to a whistle or my piano, then I tune the drones so they ‘ring’ with the A, G in the first octave and f# in the second octave. If these three notes combined with the drones ‘ring’, I am a happy camper. Tuning the pipes, as it seems to me, would be an even tougher job if you used an electronic tuner for all of the afore-mentioned notes. When playing with other musicians, I will tune the chanter (reed position in or out) and then the drones accordingly. Most of the time, folks are good about offering to tune to me, but it isn’t usually a big deal as all instruments are really close. Fixed tuned instruments like the accordian and concertina etc, are examples of what everybody has to tune to.

I used to play with a guitarist in a rock-n-roll band who was very addicted to his tuner. After every song, he would retune his axe. This amounted to a lot of dead air on stage and my losing most of my top hair prematurely. :smiley:

I think it may be an exercise in futility within the theater of the absurd to try and lean so heavily on portable tuners for the UPs… just a humble opinion. :smiley:

26

Hmm, all good points. I can’t believe that a piano tuner wouldn’t work all of this out ONE TIME and then re-use it for each subsequent instrument. I suppose different instruments might vary by string material and general body configuration, but at least you would have a quick reference chart to start from.

And really, that’s all I am thinking about here. Work this stuff out one time, write it down, and then post it for others to use. I don’t care to sit and retune constantly. I don’t even want to think about tuning once. If I have a table of numbers that I know are accurate and specific to the UPs in any key, then I can quickly tune to that chart with little or no thought, knowing that I will be mostly in tune with myself and any other instruments I may be playing with, and concentrate on playing, instead of wondering why I sound like s**t today and trying to find the offender.

It seems it will be a lot of work to get this table accurate, but once done, it would be a big time saver, instead of sitting there straining to hear where the tuning has gone off.

Other input appreciated. This is a fruitful discussion for me.

djm

27

One thing I feel should be remembered by pipers, is that we aren’t really playing one instrument, we’re playing roughly 4 to 7+ instruments at the same time. This makes it nearly impossible to be spot on combining together chanter, drones and how ever many regs one may have. In addition, tuners vary, and I am unaware of a tuner designed specifically for tuning the Uilleann Pipes and all of its relatives.

28

I agree with Joseph. The way I use a tuner is to tune my tenor drone to D, tune the other drones to the tenor. I recheck that the drones are playing a solid D, then tune my chanter to the drones. A tuning fork in D will work as well as a tuner. I have seen more than one player (usually not a very experienced one) tune all reg. notes and drones to their electronic marvel, only to have the final result sound like crap. A tuner is a good servant but a terrible master. A good musician will train his ear to hear degrees of in/out of tuness. Pythagorean tuning is closer than just to what a good singer or fiddler will actually produce when sounding most in tune. A piano tuner adjusts the octaves a bit higher or wider as he moves up the keyboard than what a tuner shows. Therefore A=440 does not yield an A=3420 up the keyboard in a well tuned instrument, but somewhat higher. A piano tuner starts in the middle of the keyboard and adjusts octave widths to sound good BY EAR. Read Helmholtz in his pioneering work " On the Sensations of Tone".

Ted

29

Typo, that should be “On the Sensation of Tone”, written in the late 1800’s. I sometimes tune my drones to my reg’s, as they are quite stable. It is interesting to listen to and watch Paddy Keenan tune up. I’ve never seen any pro players use a tuner much except to tune the root. What would one do with an old Egan set which wants to play somewhere between say B & C. The human ear, with training, is an extremely sensitive judge of tuning. Resist the temptation to become enslaved to a tuner. TRAIN YOUR EARS INSTEAD!

Ted

30

Ted, wise words, no doubt. But I am extremely lazy. I can force myself to do any repugnant task once, but when that task is repetitive I start looking for alternatives. Thus the search for a tuning table to start off from.

I have sat with Joe Kennedy an entire day while he worked on tuning a set of regs - just the regs. An entire day, and he still wasn’t 100% satisfied he’d nailed it. By that time I was so exhausted that I determined there had to be a better way. To my own fuzzy logic, working it out once, and then writing it down as a reference chart for future use, seems to be the best way to create a starting point, and then using the ears for the final tweaking.

How much does your set go out of tune week to week? How many hours do you spend retuning (if you bother to retune)? Wouldn’t you like to cut that time in half or better? That is what I would like to achieve. Maybe my idea of a tuning chart as a starting off point is misguided (?). Does anyone have a better idea to reduce time spent tuning?

Thx,

djm

31

djm…I think that the options are fairly limited, tune by ear or use a tuner sparingly. Unfortunately, where you and a lot of others live is subject to wide climatic variations…frequently. I would think that learning to trust your ear would be the prudent choice for tuning you pipes.

I am not knocking tuners, or figuring out a formula to set your tuning guidelines by, but I honestly do not see that it can be consistant…there are so many variables to take into consideration. There will always be good days, and bad days for the pipes when it comes to playing in tune…something all pipers should bear in mind and make peace with.

A third possible option is to get so sloppy drunk that it nolonger bothers you. Works for me a lot of the time. :smiley:

32

Quite true about widening the octaves as you go up/down on pianos. This is because the human ear is not precisely accurate as the mathematical formula. It interprets it as accurate though. Kinda like still seeing the sun as it sets when in reality it’s already gone down. Things are not always as they really are. If the highest notes on the piano were mathematically accurate, the ear would say they were flat, so we raise them to fool the ear into thinking it’s up where it should be. I know some tuners that just tune the last few notes out of hearing range (beyond the ability to decipher intonation). People seldom can tell anything is wrong. Some can though..

I never tune any instrument with a tuner. Even the Piano, I only use it to double check that I’m where I should be. It also saves the ear of tiring to see what’s happening. Lots of really good blind piano tuners. Even in the several bands I play in, they all use tuners except me. and you know what? I have one instrument that is very stable, never needs tuning. I take it back and forth between bands and find I have to adjust it to their particular electronic tuners. YUCK!

Esp the pipes…I get the set balanced and in tune and make the fiddler and bouzouki player tune to me. Those electronic tuners are adjustable you know!

33

And add this :

A major scale (D major for instance) is constructed with those ratios,based only on octave (ratio 2), and just 5th (ratio 3/2); the just 4th is the difference between 5th and octave (so 2/(3/2)= 4/3) and the tone is the difference between 4th and 5th ((3/2)/(4/3)= 9/8 )
Degree Ratio
1 1
2 9/8
3 9/89/8
4 4/3
5 3/2
6 3/29/8
7 3/29/89/8
8 2

An harmonic scale, where each degree is given by an harmonic of a fundamental sound, gives
Degree Ratio
1 1 (fundamental, 1st, 3rd, 7th harmonic)
2 9/8 (8th harmonic)
3 5/4 (4th, 9th harmonic)
4 11/8 (10th harmonic)
5 3/2 (2th, 5th, 11th harmonic)
6 13/8 (12th harmonic)
7 7/4 (6th harmonic)
8 2

which shows a 7th degree very low, as it is for GHB.

But I suppose the higher the harmonic, the more difficult to hear; so high harmonics have probably been replaced by the degrees from major scale. That means that Pelham’s tuning is based on
Degree Ratio
1 1
2 9/8
3 5/4
4 4/3
5 3/2
6 4/35/4 =5/3 if you want between 4th and 6th the same 3rd as between 1st and 3rd
7 3/25/4 = 15/8
8 2

I use a scale based on
Degree Ratio
1 1
2 9/8
3 5/4
4 4/3
5 3/2
6 3/29/8= 27/16 if you want a tone (9/8 ) between 5th and 6th degree
7 3/25/4 = 15/8
8 2

34

An octave In equal temperament is divided in 12 semitones, and in 1200 cents, defined as follows:

100 cents make 1 semitone, but in a logarithmic scale; that means, for a fundamental sound whose frequency is f,

faaa….*a (100 times) = f1,

and the interval between f and f1 is 1 semitone, and OTHO,
faaa….*a (1200times) = 2f, for there is one octave between f and 2f

That gives you the value for one cent

a = 2^(1/1200) = 1,00057779

and a semitone is a^100 = 1,059463

35

Here’s a good website that explains a bit about the differences between Just Intonation and Equal Tempermant:

http://hermode.com/

Cheers

36

PHCook, I don’t understand how to use these ratios. What do they mean in real numbers? Have you tried these numbers to tune a real full set of UPs?

Thx,

djm

37

Folks, you’re all over-egging the pudding somewhat. To tune your pipes (any kind of pipes, including pipes for holding water), all you do is find all the bits you can move, and move them about until it sounds right. When it sounds right, you’re in tune.

HTH,
Calum

38

These are the ratios between different degrees of the scale; for instance, take our D scale; A is 440, and is a just 5th above D. So, if D is the first degree, the frequency of the just 5th is 3/2*(D frequency) = 440; that means that D frequency is 440/(3/2) = 293,3.

Same for other degrees, using the ratios. You can have any value.

With those ratios, you can see differences between equal temperment, major scale, or diatonic scale.

For instance, the major 3rd means a ratio of 9/89/8 (two major tones); you see that, based on harmonics, we should tune the 3rd a little lower, 9/810/9=5/4.

These is because the harmonics given by drones have to be related to sounds of chanter.

When I tune, I take the bass drone as a reference, because some of its harmonics are direct sounds of the chanter. So, when the bass is tuned, I can tune the regs with it.

For me, I tune only by ear, after controlling that A=440.

3rd, 4th, 5th are tunable by ear: chanter and drones ;
2nd isn’t easy, but it’s possible using drones. You should feel comfortable with it, even if it doesn’t sound very good. When well-tuned, it’s acceptable.

The 6th, I use electronic tuning, because I prefer one major tone between A and B (ratio 9/8 ).

For the 7th, I try to tune it one just 3rd above A, and need electronic tuning, same interval as between D and F (ratio 5/4 ); that means that C is a little low compared to a major scale, but I prefer it, it’s better for Csharp (more space between C and D).

39

Here’s what I use, supports just intonation and setting the scale root:

http://www.petersontuners.com/products/modelvsam/index.cfm >

Its the perfect, abeit a bit pricey, solution to all your tuning troubles…

LOL have you ever bumped the selector switch when calibrating, and ended up calibrating in 1/10ths cent?? I hate when that happens. :wink:

I have the early incarnation the VS1. Nessy the 1 pound Tuning monster. I smashed my ca-30 with it.. Of all things I use it on GHB’s and also Guitar (with the Guitar temp). The onboard Just temp works great on my A440 chanter.

40

Okay, just one more question:

I have used the ratios to work out Just Temperament values, and 1.0594631 to work out the Equal Temperament values. Now I am at the point of subtracting to get the differences. Since this is a decimal number, do I use the difference as my +/- in cents, or is there another calculation required?

e.g. for bottom D:

Just - A440/(3/2) = 440/1.5 = 293.334
Equal - 440 / 1.0594631 repeatedseven times = 293.665
Difference = 0.331

Does this mean my guitar tuner will always tell me my bottom D is low by -33 cents, but actually meaning I am in tune with A=440?

Thx,

djm