Traditional or composed? Revisited.

Trad Irish Music
1

I wasn’t sure where to post this, so my first new thread in some time even though I’m not sure of the value of it.

It occurs to me while reading a recent very similarly titled thread by West, and also out of the Larson BMI thread, that there is a false dichotomy constructed between traditional and composed tunes. All the tunes (well almost all the tunes) that we play are both. Firstly, all the tunes we play were certainly composed by someone, though we may know not who (rather obvious I suppose), and secondly, all the tunes of Irish dance music that we know the composers of (Liz Carroll, Paddy Fahey, Eamonn McElhome, Piper Jackson, etc) are still traditional tunes. This is part of what it means to be part of a living tradition, not one of reenactment, not one of a musical museum.

How is it then that there is some odd perception of difference between tunes that are old and those that are new? What happens when we find that a tune we thought was old with an unknown composer is in fact written recently by someone we know or have heard of (or someone we haven’t)? It would seem that that would put this false dichotomy to bed, but for some reason it doesn’t?

Any notions?

2

There was a small bit of discussion of this before, including this comment of mine from a year ago.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=683640&highlight=#683640

“…it’s possible for a tune to be both traditional and authored. On recordings, traditional means anonymous, but the two concepts are not the same. Whether or not a tune or song has entered the folk process is really a separate issue from its source.”

3

The only valid test for a tune is whether or not it is accepted by the community of traditional musicians. ‘The tradition’ tends to chew on new things and spit out what doesn’t fit.

I used to go out to Bodyke to visit fiddler and piper Martin Rochford, an old man and with his friend Paddy Canny probably THE embodiment of East Clare music. Anyhow, Martin was always chasing good tunes, if he caught you playing one he didn’t have he’d sit you down and keep you there until you wrote it down for him. At some point, after a long visit in 1989 during which I recorded several hours of his fiddleplaying, I realised that a large part of the tunes I got off him were not just the old East Clare tunes tunes like the ones that came from Johnny Allen (who also gave tunes to Francis O Neill when the captain visited East Clare) but were written by contemporaries of Martin : Junior Crehan, Larry Redican, Sean Ryan, Paddy Fahey, Tommy Coen, Bobby Casey, Paddy Canny, Ed Reavy and probably a load of others who I can’t identify. The only thing that mattered: they were good tunes.

4

Hi there,

My take on this is…

I have an evening / session with family, friends etc to play some music.
perhaps one or two other musicians are there.

Someone asks me to play a tune on me whistle
I play a reel or jig` I’ve written, they listen and enjoy..or not?

The question of acceptance doesn’t come into it.
They either like it or don’t…

If another musician likes it good, he might learn it

Traditional music is for the people by the people
It lives, it changes

It ain’t For Traditional musicians by Traditional musicians

It’s valid if people enjoy listening to it, or dancing to it!

Cheers
pkev

5

Yes. I heartily agree.

Just broadly on the question of “tradition” ( and I am speaking broadly and not specifically for ITM but that doesn’t mean that ITM is not covered by the broad brush) tradition has SEVERAL meanings including.

  1. material (compositional and or lyric) that is now the common heritage of the people or peoples as opposed to material that is under specific ownership and control (copyright)

  2. articulation (ways of playing) of a music that are consistent with the mainstream articulations within an ethnic group or community or articulation which gives rise to association with them.

  3. composition that is inspired by or sourced in common heritage as in 1 above or composition that is intended to be articulated as in 2 above or both.

  4. innovative interpretation of common heritage (music or lyrics).

6

I like those 4 characteristics, talasiga, they work quite nicely.

there can be no such thing as a tradition frozen in time. new developments within the tradition (whether those are tunes, ways of playing, etc) really need to have some continuity or share characteristics with what has been passed down for them to catch on. lots of crap tunes get written these days, but no doubt others were written over the last couple centuries as well, just the ones we know are the good ones, so presumably the same thing will happen with the tunes being written now. if you don’t like a tune, don’t learn it - there are lots of good ones worth learning. and if enough people like a tune and play it for long enough, eventually maybe it will be accepted as part of the ‘tradition’, whether it has a known composer or not. hope that train of thought makes sense…

Sara

7

A fair point indeed.

I was over in Dublin a while back and heard some very nice sessions. A very high standard of playing all round and a great joy to hear.
What scared me was that I recognised very few of the tunes being played.
Now being at it for about thirty five years now I have a good repetoire of tunes under my rapidly extending belt but the general crack seemed to have moved on to a different body of tunes.
Had I been tooled up with a fiddle or whistle I would have been like a newbie sitting in a corner hoping they would play something I knew.

A lot of what I heard sounded very new to me and lacked that structure and flow that I grew up around but, no doubt, they were good tunes

Maybe I should move to the Bog :laughing:

Slan,
D. :smiley:

8

Can’t tell if I agree or not. Can you say who “the people” are in your formulation, and perhaps how they are different from the “traditional musicians you refer to?”

I agree that those are someone’s notions of tradition, but whose, and might not there be many more, some contradiction some of those?

9

Hi there,

In response, I refer to the ordinary people leading ordinary lives providing their own entertainment the way it used to be.

The Butcher who happens to play the flute,
The farmer who happens to play the fiddle
The farmers wife who sings
The postman who plays the whistle etc you get my drift

They all play at local dances or ceilidh’s, Family gatherings
Some perhaps also write a few tunes here and there

Some of those tunes may be inspired by the people’s experience of their lives and community in which they live or some well known character within the community

I play tunes I’ve written at local dances with my ceilidh band and have done so for many years. People have listened, danced and enjoyed themselves.

People write tunes for other people for many reasons, to lament or in memory of, or to celebrate an event or to lift someone up.

The traditional musicians I’m referring to are the ones who argue usually in forums like this one, over rules of engagement at sessions, who argue over who the greatest composer is, the best fiddle player, the best flute player, what is and isn’t the real deal as far as trad music goes.
Who compare musician against musician tune against tune, teacher against teacher, the list goes on and on and on and on.

Meanwhile, the butcher with his flute, the farmer with his fiddle and the postman with his whistle etc continue happily along their way in keeping traditional music alive! within their community!

Perhaps it’s something also to do with the differences between being educated or not, either musically or intellectually.

Generalisation here but, people who are well educated tend to think they are better than those who are not. Some think that having knowledge is power but not everyone realises that with great power comes great responsibility or so I’ve heard.

Rant over and apologies for long post!

To finish, this is our generation and we should be continuing to write tunes that reflect our lives and experiences to keep traditional music alive!

Cheers
pkev

10

The point being in regard to traditional music, as in being kept alive?
Slan,
D.

11

Hi there,

Flutey 1 wrote:

there can be no such thing as a tradition frozen in time. new developments within the tradition (whether those are tunes, ways of playing, etc) really need to have some continuity or share characteristics with what has been passed down for them to catch on.

What flutey 1 said

Cheers
pkev

12

I can live with that theory but you have no idea what you’re missin’..

Slan,
D. :slight_smile:

13

Hi there,

I live quite happily with that theory cos I’ve captured, embraced and respected whats already been passed down to me.

Nope!..thinking about it…done thinking…conclusion…

Not missing anything here!


Cheers
pkev

14

Ye sound like a Rangers man..

Slan,
D. :slight_smile:

15

Well, I think I agree - except that those first group are what I would describe as traditional musicians - that is to say, what I would disagree with you about is the dichotomy that you are setting up, or at least the labels you are choosing to use. I suppose my question to you would be, why do you call the other group (arguing about best flute player etc.) traditional musicians?


I have always thought, by the way, that about things like transcendent musicians, discussions of best are nonsensical, and it’s why I am not so fond of comhaltas’s competition culture. Who is to choose between Brendans McGlinchey and Mulvihill (as happened in the 70s for example), and what would they mean by describing one as better than the other, other than that they personally enjoy one’s style more than the other?

16

Hi

Bepoq, I suppose it’s only a label I’m using to distinguish that it takes all sorts of people to encompass traditional music.

However, I do think there are some differences worth mentioning

It’s just really my own personal view but I do think that If your sole traditional musical input / output activities amount to playing in Sessions and competitions, then primarily you serve yourself & the musicians you play with, but with perhaps less emphasis on serving and celebrating the life and experience of the people you live and work with.

I just think that traditional musicians who focus solely on sessions and competitions aren’t indicative of what traditional music is about.



Cheers
pkev

17

I couldn’t agree more. For me, traditional music is about people, their work and their lives, it is their enjoyment and expression of these things through their music.

Sessions and competitions are all fine and good, but really shouldn’t be considered the be-all, end-all of what traditional music is about.

18

Perhaps an example to consider

Phil Cunningham was recently awarded with an Honorary Fellowship of the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama

To celebrate this occasion, one of the lecturers / fellows composed a piece of music for Phil

Phil’s response to this was that he had spent a large part of his musical career writing tunes for other people and to have a tune composed for him self was something special that he felt really honoured by. It was something he would always have to remember the occasion / event by and perhaps also to pass down through his family

I don’t know whether Phil personally considered the composition to be of an acceptable standard in comparison to his own standards. I doubt whether he actually considered it at all, but he acknowledged and respected the thought and effort that someone else put into it.

By the same token, the farmer with his fiddle from my previous posts decides to compose a tune to celebrate his daughter’s wedding. In the same way she feels honoured and acknowledges the thought and effort. It was something she would always have to remember the occasion / event by and perhaps also to pass down to her children etc

Regardless of the standard of composition between the tune
Phil Cunningham received and the tune the farmer wrote, the common ground / link is that the music serves the people. (not the musician) It’s who they were written for and why that counts.

There is also the possibility that the two tunes could meet each other at a Ceilidh or Session 80 years from now. The origins of the tunes however, may not be as well represented in the future as they are today.

Just my 2 cents

Cheers
pkev

19

It’s who they are written for and why that counts? This doesn’t seem right to me. The way you say that suggests that other things don’t count. Or that those things count more - which suggests to me a return to this western art music inflected understanding that “the work” whatever that is, is paramount. Which is very odd thinking to me. It would also seem to mean that once the provenance of the tune is lost, the music is less important. Considering that the playing of the music is where the vast majority of creativity in Irish trad lies, I don’t find the notion that who the tunes are written for to be so any more important by comparison, and perhaps less - though an example such of that of Phil is good one to show that that is also important.

In addition, whence comes this notion that the session is not very important? Unless you use a very tight definition of session - and I would argue that a session consists of two or more trad musicians playing together in any informal setting - I would suggest that the session is vitally important. Firstly because the musical communication that takes place between the farmer and Phil Cunningham as they play together is subtle and intimate and can achieve quite extraordinary interdependent complexity. Secondly, because of the social aspect of the session - the times between the tunes, that are fundamentally important to the bonds between the players, and are a significant part of their social and cultural life.

I’m not sure quite why you are talking about the standard of the tune composed for Phil or by the farmer - it sounds as though you are arguing against something that I haven’t understood.

As to formal competition (which I assume is what you are talking about?)- I mostly agree that it gets a bit too much emphasis, though it isn’t as simple as all that either, and I don’t know a soul who does only the competitions and does not also engage in most other aspects of the music too.


I suppose that my difficulty with what you are saying might be phrased this way:

Who are you arguing against? I don’t recognize what you’ve described as fitting any of the musicians that I know (and I know many, and good ones), and why do you title whatever it is that you are arguing against as trad musicians, and leave the alternative as “the people” which seems far too broad a term if you are talking about people who are involved in Irish trad music.

20

Sessions, as we know them, have only been around a little over half a century. Traditional music, on the other hand, has been around since early humans smacked two stones together.

I don’t think anyone is belittling sessions, or the importance sessioneers place upon them. But they aren’t the beginning, nor the end, of traditional music. Traditional music survives because people compose it, play it on a daily basis, share it. It has been doing so for time beyond collective memory.