Traditional or composed? Revisited.

Trad Irish Music
21

And how do they play it? The idea that sessions (as we know them?? - who is we?) began when the pub sessions in London began is false, unless you are putting that very tight definition on session. If, as I said and you seemed to ignore, a session is two or more Irish trad musicians playing together informally, then they have clearly been around for significantly longer, or do you suggest that Irish trad musicians never played together at all prior to those pub sessions beginning?

Even if it were true that musicians began to play together informally only then, which is patently absurd, the fact is that they do now, and that sessions of whatever type are a fundamental part of the tradition. Or would you have the tradition be a musical museum and remain unchanging?

If you take away the communal aspect of traditional music, what are you suggesting is the important part?

And Irish traditional music of the sort we play today (jigs reels etc.) has certainly not been around since humans first knocked stones together, in fact, not anything like it.

22

Traditional music, those are the two words I believe I used… not ITM.

Musicians have certainly been playing together for time out of mind and I haven’t suggested anything to the contrary… I was indeed refering to pub sessions, as I believe you very well know.

I haven’t “taken away” the communal aspect of trad music, where did you get that idea? Perhaps you haven’t read my first post… or chose to ignore it.

Music be a museum and unchanging? Point it out to me where I even hinted at that.

I think valid points have been made on any side of this debate so far and that now, it is has become a matter of semantics and the joy of seeing our words in type regardless of content or authenticity.
:really:

23

Hi

In response to Bepoq, you raise some interesting points so I will try to tackle some of them allbeit it is just a personal viewpoint however odd you may find it.

As to it’s the who they are written for and why it counts!

The music has to be written for at least some reason, there’s usually some inspiration behind a tune that’s composed.

Whether it’s a person, place, other piece of music, event, whatever, that doesn’t mean to say the actual music is less important, it’s the creative expression of that inspiration, so I would say the provenance of the tune is not lost, even more so, if other musicians pick the tune up.

Bepoq wrote;

In addition, whence comes this notion that the session is not very important? Unless you use a very tight definition of session - and I would argue that a session consists of two or more trad musicians playing together in any informal setting - I would suggest that the session is vitally important. Firstly because the musical communication that takes place between the farmer and Phil Cunningham as they play together is subtle and intimate and can achieve quite extraordinary interdependent complexity. Secondly, because of the social aspect of the session - the times between the tunes, that are fundamentally important to the bonds between the players, and are a significant part of their social and cultural life.

I would agree with most of this but would also add OTOH that

Not all sessions provide the wonderful intimate setting you describe.
All you have to do is read the forums, my guess is that you’ll get more feedback about the negative aspects of sessions than the positive ones.
Peoples experiences with sessions are certainly mixed and varied from what I’ve read.

Perhaps the following will ring some bells;

Ego’s, attitudes, tuning, playing too loud, doodling cos you don’t know the tune, harmonizing not allowed, improvising how dare you?, how many guitars should play, mandolins not wanted, bodhrans accepted only if tastefully done, no slow airs, DADGAD Guitar is better,
Slow sessions, closed sessions cos we have good musicians who are sensitive to each other, open sessions, rules, rules, rules, rules, rules…oh and I forgot rules…and if i go along to a session will I be made welcome…certainly…if you obey the rules…and you enter at your own risk…all neatly tied up in little boxes.

Perhaps more importantly, who’s actually accountable for all this…
well surprise, surprise, it’s your vitally important to traditional music bona fide traditional music sessioneer

Under those circumstances you would understand why not every traditional musician needs to place such high importance on the
session for their musical, social and cultural bonding and well being.

Perhaps an ever so slightly cynical view…but the choice is there or not as the case may be. And for those who can’t attend a session cos there ain’t any where you live or you are perhaps disabled and housebound, your experience of traditional music need not suffer cos you can’t get to a session. Of course it might enrich your experience as well if you had the opportunity.. I don’t know

As to the comment I made re the tune for Phil and the farmers tune,
the point there was simply to show that whether anyone else who heard the tunes thought they were good or bad, the common link was there for the tunes to get passed on and that they were written to celebrate these specific events and were accepted by the recipients.


Hope that explains further…

Cheers
pkev

24

Authenticity, etc? I don’t agree. I didn’t “very well know.” I wasn’t originally directing my comments at you. I don’t think it is semantics. And as to “joy of seeing our words in type,” you must be joking mate. It’s a sodding message board. If that does it for you joy wise, fair enough.

You want to talk about sessions, but mean only pub sessions, and then you want to talk about traditional music, but mean all traditional music of any kind ever. I am entirely unable to figure out what you mean by what you’ve written, so if you want to get stroppy about it, knock yourself out, but I’m really not interested. I would be interested in how you define traditional music though: what sort of music is not traditional (what sort is not of one tradition or another)?

We, at least I, was never talking about just pub sessions. If you were, then why not say so? The original words from both you and pkev were “sessions and competitions,” now why would I assume you meant only pub sessions? But please - I’m interested in what pkev was saying and would like to continue talking about it with him - if you don’t like what I’ve got to say, by all means don’t reply - seems pkev is happy enough discussing it.

25

That’s very interesting pkev, although it sounds as though I should really ask you straight off if you mean pub sessions, or if you are subscribing to my wider definition, so as to avoid taking you wrongly.

Speaking as an Irish traditional musician who periodically writes tunes, I wouldn’t say that I always write them for someone or some event, and that I frequently don’t (and I believe that goes for most of the tunesmiths that I know). It is true that the one I put on the CD was written for someone though. :slight_smile:

But I really find interesting what you say about the connection between musicians and the people that they live and work with. It’s a difficult one really, (its okay for me because I work with musicians as a musician, but I don’t imagine that is what you are on about) but I think I see what you mean. It seems like that would be partly due to difference of circumstance with the nature of work and such, now as opposed to in days gone by. But how do you see it working yourself? I would say that, having lived with another musicians (and near them) the session (both pub and not) has been an integral part of our social lives together - such that a session of one sort or another regularly played a big part in the way we lived together and how we got along.

26

You are right of course - I was speaking of the type of session that one hopes for. I do recognize many of those things it’s true, though I reckon they are a bit overstated there, but I recognize most of them in the main from when I was not a very good or experienced player. It is difficult with sessions of course - they are neither for music only nor purely social events. Rather they are a complex mix of the two, and that is largely the problem. The understanding of the micropolitics and the subtleties of both the music and the session overall is something only gained at length and with experience, and so how to make top music with musicians less accomplished in their playing, not as full in their understanding of the session. It is important to musicians to make good music with their friends - making music with others that transcends the ordinary is an important social experience for good musicians, and looking back, I realize that I have more than once been what stopped that happening. How to avoid a person like my younger self damaging the music and possibly the social aspect of a good session? Rules are one way I suppose, though I don’t like or agree with them myself, partly because I don’t think that they educate very well, but mainly because they are inflexible, but the alternative is to for musicians to both defend their session and educate the junior musicians as things go (hopefully in transparently good spirit, but this is sometimes difficult, and neither are the junior musicians always able to take this well, nicely phrased or not, particularly when they are not junior otherwise).

But who are these sessioneers as you call them? Are they not also traditional musicians? Are they not also people playing with their peers? If they are in fact experienced and skillful, are they not in fact tradition bearers? I also say again that few of them that i’ve ever met were not also musicians in other ways, not just of the public session.

27

Unbelievable.

Suit yourself. :boggle:

28

Hi,

I’m trying to keep this as simple as possible probably more so for me to get my own head around the subject.

I have a passion and interest in traditional music
I like to play music with other musicians and also play to my family, friends and also perhaps to an even wider audience, given the opportunity to do so. I’d like to think that the music I play has some appeal to anyone who listens.

I play a mixture of songs and tunes I’ve learned over the years which include some of the tunes I’ve written myself. I play these tunes at family gatherings, dances, sessions, concerts depending on the opportunities arising.

Perhaps because I’m known locally for my skills in playing traditional music, people who want to hear this music, ask me to play quite often in different settings.

I’m asked sometimes to compose a piece of music for wedding ceremonies ie for the Bride to walk down the aisle. Somebody hears that music, likes it, asks where it came from and now I have another tune to write for their wedding.

It’s someone’s 60th Birthday so I’m asked again to write another tune.

Sometimes I also write a tune for no particular reason as well, just to see what I can come up with musically, I also like to write tunes & sets for dancing to at Ceilidh’s.

The point of this is to simply highlight the possibility that as a traditional musician, much of my time might actually be spent serving the people (local community) around me with whatever music is required.

Having an odd thinking moment here but perhaps a thought to consider, if you spend much or all of your time as a musician practising for competitions as well as going to sessions, then would it not be fair to say then that your time is weighted more towards serving yourself and your musician friends than the wider community?

Whilst I totally accept that the music played at sessions and competitions celebrates traditional music being played as much as anyone else, I think there is a wider role for the musician to play in the local community which is just as, if not more vital in keeping the tradition going.

That would include playing at dances, family gatherings, with friends who perhaps aren’t musicians but like to listen to music, writing tunes for people etc the whole bit.

Yes there are festivals, concerts and workshops that people who are interested can go along to but traditional music should also be reflected some way in our everyday living.

I also think it’s fair to say that people today have many more options in relation to the social activities they participate in, so perhaps another reason to ensure our families and friends are reminded of the music they grew up with.

Personally speaking, I think that the session has changed much, certainly over the last 25 – 30 years since I started going. Too much crap as I’ve mentioned before attached to them. Musicians are different now, different values, attitudes, perhaps also a lack of respect for each other, I don’t know, but I don’t particularly like what I’m seeing today

To finish, I think it’s unfortunate the way the communication between Bepoq and Joseph E Smith went, with a bit of thought it could have been avoided IMO

Cheers
pkev

29

Hiya Pkev,

Very thought provoking stuff, mate. I particularly like the serving the community bit. Unfortunately, I think that Irish traditional music (and Scottish presumably) has frequently moved well beyond where the local community actively wants anything from it, or sometimes even notices that it exists. I’m an Irish musician from Liverpool. When I lived in Ullapool, it did seem that one could attempt to integrate the music well into the community life. However, I now live in San Diego, where the community at large doesn’t know that I exist as a musician. I take students, play gigs when they can be found (including weddings and such), though usually they are found well away from San Diego, and on the few occasions that it has been needed, I’ve played for free at events. But I don’t get people coming and asking for a tune celebrating so and so’s life or marriage or whatever, I don’t think it would occur to them, or that they would see it as so very meaningful - more’s the pity. This sort of environment changes the way the music exists from day to day in relation to it I suspect.

One way you might set up even the pub session in opposition to the way you’ve coloured it, is to point out that such a session does take the music out in the community (at least one aspect of it) and allows it to be heard freely and for free in a relatively everyday life sort of place and way - that is, not as a stagelike performance. I think it might reasonably be said that sessions are in fact music in the community.

I don’t formally compete - never did and don’t want to - I largely agree with you about that. But tying that to session playing is mistake I believe. The majority of musicians that I know play a great many sessions (in amongst the other ways that they play their music), but don’t compete.

30

Hi there,

You raise good points which I accept both about your particular circumstances in San Diego, and Sessions are seen as music in the community.

Also, because you are not asked to write a tune for someone doesn’t mean to say you can’t offer one as a gift anyway….right!

Just as a further consideration on tune writing, and one which I have difficulty in getting my head around, concerns Peter’s post regarding the only valid test for a tune is whether it is accepted by the community of musicians.

Given that one of the general rules of engagement in sessions I’ve read and been told about is that it is severely frowned upon by the esteemed members if someone starts a tune no one knows, or even worse, a self penned tune.

How does one then, put it before the community of musicians to find out whether it is going to be accepted or not?

Do I wait till the end of the session and ask the esteemed members if I can audition the tune, perhaps ask some of them to learn it over a couple of weeks if they can be bothered

or

Invite them to a session at my house and introduce them to the tunes there and tell my wife there are 15 musicians coming over for coffee get the Urn out?

Lets take the Farmers tune that he wrote for his daughter’s wedding as an example, both she and her new husband loved the tune the farmer wrote so in simple terms, the job is done and dusted.

He then goes to a nearby session and someone asks him to call up a tune.
He thinks to himself, I’d really love to play that tune I wrote, but as a law abiding Session member, I’m screwed as far as that tune goes.

So what happens to the tune then, well it might stay within the family so to speak or else the farmer decides to form a Ceilidh Band & includes the tune in his dance sets. He then sets about organising a barn dance…feckin hell all that effort just to share his tunes with everyone. It just so happens though, that the Ceilidh band gets a fair amount of work over the next 15 – 20 years, and it just so happens the line up of the band goes through a number of changes and while that happens a number of musicians pass through and pick up his tune and start playing it elsewhere…ultimately ending up being played at the session he wanted to play the bloody tune at in the first place.

So the point of all this, sessions should encourage tunesmiths as much as every other aspect of musicianship is encouraged.

The question might remain though as to how good the tune actually is and whether it might be accepted by the community of musicians.

The quickest way to answer that is to hear the tune and let things take their course. It also helps the tunesmith hone their craft…and should be encouraged. The tunesmith will soon learn & the session might be a good platform to teach him / her. After all, it only takes a couple of minutes to play a tune.

If the session is where the community of musicians are and they don’t encourage tunesmiths!..give us a feckin break!

On a side note, It’s probably just as well I don’t have a high post count…:slight_smile:


Cheers
pkev

31

It’s another one of those tricky things - if a session is mainly about playing together, then playing a tune that no one knows seems to be against that ethos etc. etc.. I’ve not found it to be any kind of rule in general though, and if you read Ciaran Carson’s description of the ultimate session in Last Night’s Fun i think that he speaks of a session that has lots of good old tunes tempered by a good few rare ones. (not that Carson is gospel of course). For my part, I never had trouble with anyone inserting an odd tune of their own into a set every now and then - and after a while, if they hit your mind the right way, you pick them up. I’ve not really had any trouble throwing in the odd one of my own either, and I’ve a number of tunes learned that way. Another way is when I’m playing a very small session - one of those ones where you are searching for new or interesting or rare tunes with just one or two other people - very easy to offer one of your own there, or hear someone else’s I think. I would object to someone only offering super rare or loads of their own tunes in a session - that would seem to break the idea of communal playing

So anyway, I think the idea of no new tunes at a session being a rule, is harder and faster than is actually the case - much depends on the type or character of the session and your place in it, how long you’ve been going, how well you are known and respected etc. But I think that Peter is right in this respect - if a tune enters into the common repertoire either locally or more broadly, it probably does so because it fits other player’s notions of what is a good tune - and it is because it is not an everyday sort of occurrence that makes it so valuable when it happens, and thereby such a complement to the tunesmith.

Your post seem very interesting to me, even when I’ve not agreed with them, but then I’ve not that many myself.

I think that all the tunes I’ve written for people have been offered as gifts, rather than asked for, now you mention it. I don’t write that many really, but every so often you know.

32

Hm, I wonder where you got that idea. It’s tricky to generalize about sessions, even from one’s own session experience, as there are many different approaches and attitudes. But beyond that, in my experience “new” tunes get introduced at sessions all the time. And the first reaction almost always centers on whether people like the tune and perhaps want to learn it and pass it on, not its provenance or who wrote it. A player who tries to dominate a session, intentionally or not, by playing strings of unfamiliar tunes might certainly be frowned on. But that’s really a social issue of common courtesy, not a musical issue per se. No?

Added: Ben posted while I was writing. I think we’re double-teaming the answer here. :slight_smile:

33

I appreciate my previous post may be viewed by some perhaps, as too much of a generalisation and a tad tongue in cheek, but with such a large membership to address one’s comments to I think general comments can be valid if there is at least some evidence to be found.

Aside from a previous post from another member being removed from this thread? As was suggested, the generalisation is informed partly by reading and participating in forums such as this one and the session.org, and whether folks agree or not, it is indicative of how some, not all I may add however, actually view the matter.

These musicians appear genuinely sincere in offering their numerous
years of experience of traditional music sessions in their posts to the forums. It’s also perhaps worth bearing in mind that some of these musicians are highly respected individuals amongst the community of musicians, (or should that be the Chiff & Fipple and Session.Org community of musicians) who are excellent musicians.

It’s perhaps worth noting the enthusiasm and fervour of some of these musicians in relation to what the session is about when they offer their posts, how they should be run, what is acceptable or not etc
(insert my previous post for a fuller, but I’m sure not exhaustive list)

The thing that concerns me slightly with this is that, regarding new members to the forums and those who are fairly new to the experience of traditional music….are they really able to sort the wheat from the chaff? While there may be some who are well capable of doing this, if some don’t know any better, I’m afraid it might rather be a case of one follows Peter, another follows Paul type thing.

From my reading of the last couple of posts, it appears the general consensus might actually be that new tunes are in fact encouraged in most sessions all beit in moderation which I totally accept. That being the case, I’m totally with you guys

It might be interesting to see the results of a poll on this.

For that matter it might be interesting to see quite a few polls conducted on a range of topics as it might give us an indication of what the larger membership actually thinks

Cheers
pkev

34

It looks like Peter deleted his own post. Too bad … there were some good comments there.

35

MT

Yes they were good comments..

Cheers
pkev

36

Exactly how long does the phenomenon of “playing together” go back in traditional Irish music?

(And, does it go back long enough to challenge the predominant traditional ethos of the solo instrumentalist or singer in both slow airs and dance music?)

37

I’m not sure there can be any exactly about it I’m afraid. Certainly musicians played together for dances, and also on the vaudeville stage well back into the 19th C anyway - originally just a few, though by the time you get to the huge New York dance halls of the early 20th C., really large bands just to fill the space with sound. There is an article about the traditional nature of this sort of thing by Reg Hall in the Crossroads Conference book (when I get home I’ll flip through and see what he has to say - I’m off traveling now).

Playing together may not threaten the solo notion at all - Hammy Hamilton has coined the term group solo to describe/differentiate what Irish musicians do in groups (I don’t mean bands) that is still variable and communicative yet neither arranged nor necessarily harmonically based. If anyone is interested, I can probably find a citation for that too.