Tight fit

This is a question for Loren and some of you other flute techno-geeks out there.

I have a new, for me, Noy flute. It is a boxwood eight key (nine touches). The head is unlined. It is the flute Peter originally made for JessieK some time ago. I love this flute, by the way!

My problem is this: when I first got the flute everything fit together firmly but not tightly. As I gradually played it more and more and it adjusts to Hawaii humidity (55-75% all the time) the fit has gotten tighter and tighter. The instrument has become so tight that it goes together hard, and after playing a three hour gig with my band, I can barely get it apart. I’m worried that something is going give one of these days. My inclination is to do a LITTLE cork sanding. I don’t want to do this so much that in a dryer environment it becomes loose.

So my questions are these. Should I be worried that the barrel may split if it becomes too tight …or would it have to get way tighter than I could possibly pull apart before I worry about that. I can after-all still pull it apart with some significant effort. If I sand the cork a bit, is there anything I should know beyond using a fine grit (400?) paper on just the cork and going a little bit at a time with lots of test fits between sandings. What do you suggest? It doesn’t look to me as though the cork is standing proud of the wood by much.

Clark

PS: Yes, I am asking these questions of Mr. Noy, but I want your views as well.

I would start to worry about a crack. I had a barrel crack this way a while ago. Luckily, I had a spare. In your case, it could be worse.
I would gently sand it down a bit, but I’m not too experienced in this area. Lets wait til someone with a little more experience chimes in.

I’ll take a stab at this, but I hope Loren or one of the makers will answer as well. I’ve replaced tenon corks on my Hamilton, on my Sweet Baroque flute, on my antique 8-key, and on my recorders. Here’s what I would do:

Take a strip of fine sandpaper the width of the cork, and long enough to go around the tenon about twice.

Put the sandpaper around the cork, and grab the ends on the other side with your thumb and fingers to pull it up tight against the cork. Rotate the sandpaper around the cork to sand it evenly. Be careful you are only sanding cork and not the tenon wood itself.

Go slowly, and test-fit frequently. Apply cork grease each time before testing.

Be careful about getting it too loose…it’s easy to remove material, but not so easy to add it back.

–James

I’ve installed a total of 1 tenon cork, but from all I’ve read, you are supposed to sand a little, and then try a dry fit. It should go about 1/3 to 1/2 way in without to much force. Then grease it up and try it, that should be it. J.

I’ve never been much for trying to dry fit a cork tenon.

One problem is that you may get your join stuck. Also, you may tear the cork loose from the tenon in trying to seperate them–the cork is only held on by rubber cement.

It’s also very easy to push just a little too far and crack the wood.

Sand the cork, brush it off, apply cork grease, and try your assembly with a gentle twisting motion. If you’re having to use more than gentle force, separate the join and sand some more.

Just my $.02, probably worth exactly what you paid to read it, based upon my own experiences.

–James

The first thing is to make sure that the tenon itself hasn’t swelled. This can be a more serious problem than the cork being too tight, especially with boxwood.
Sand the cork as people have suggested. Grease it well to fit. I have taken too much off on occasion and if you do, don’t worry. If you’ve taken too much cork off, carefully apply a bit of heat from a lit match to the cork as you rotate the flute. The heat will swell the cork. I don’t have to tell you to be careful and to avoid having the fire applied to one place for too long a time.
I’ve done the match trick many times. It’s not a big deal. It may discolor the cork but that’s isn’t so important either.

I had a new Lehart flute two years ago with the same problem - I bought some emery boards, both fine and coarse, and very carefully sanded a wee bit off. Well… to cut a long story short, I must have sanded the corks every day for about 2 weeks - until I finally got a good fit. It’s amazing how little comes off with fine sand paper - and cork can really swell in the sort of humidity we have in Scotland.

Be brave, and get out the fine sandpaper…!

Clark, when i got my Noy flute (which i love as well), the foot tenon was too tight, Pater told me that he does tend to make them a bit tight, and suggested i sand it a bit. I did, it still it tight, and i have rubber band for better grip on the end of the flute, i could send it down more, but by now, i kind of like the band, it grandfathered itself to the flute :wink:

one more thing to keep in mind is, that it could be that the tenon is going out of round, in that case, sanding the cork may cause a leak?


good luck, eilam.

If I may make another suggestion, you might, before
you do anything else (or along with these other measures)
give the flute a rest. Second David’s point that
the wood itself may have swelled. Boxwood
does that.

My boxwood’s tenons swell somewhat. In fact, it came to me from a more-humid place with cracks in both the barrel and the foot socket – I’m assuming from tenon expansion.

What about writing Peter and seeing about replacing the cork lapping with thread? That might give you more latitude.

Also, I make sure I grease or beeswax that flute’s tenons every time I play it – for waterproofing as well as lubrication purposes.

Do you use beeswax as a general rule for other flutes or just specifically for the Boxwood? For cork or just for wrapped tenons?

Thanx,

BillG

Hey, BillG –

I use the beeswax (mixed with a bit of almond oil) for threaded joints, and cork grease for cork-lapped ones. I don’t know if my reasoning’s right but it seems like thread needs more waterproofing and cork needs more – well, greasing! (although each substance performs both functions to a degree)

My blackwood flutes I (on average) grease or wax every other time I play (I tend to play for a minimum of 2 hours per, so there’s a fair amount of moisture going on).

[NOTE: I should bring up that as Loren has pointed out, beeswax can build up and be hard to clean out of things like cracks and such, so it’s probably wise not to go overboard (although I just scrape excess buildup away with a toothpick or popsicle stick myself) with the stuff as yours truly seems to like to do :smiley:].

The boxwood flute gets a swipe from the beeswax block every time I put it together. It is also still being oiled more frequently as well, although I’m hoping that soon I can back off on that a bit, too – but it had been “in drydock” quite a while before I got it, so it was highly absorbent.

There’s that beeswax again Cat! (I just bought some in the sewing shop and couldn’t remember what its for..)

I have been in the habit of greasing the tenons with cork grease each time before assembling the flute. I’m just wondering if there is build up of it on Clark’s tenons. My top one gets rather tight after playing before I remember to carefully scrape off the residue.

Hey, Lesl! In fact, I meant to fill you in at some point; sorry about that! :frowning:
You’re so right about the residue removal. Seems like in the case of tenons, sockets and slides that are too loose or too tight it’s either gunk 'em up or clean 'em up!

P.S. If you decide to experiment … don’t forget to mix some almond or raw linseed oil into the beeswax as you melt it. The ratio varies depending on how sticky or oily you want the result; John goes with about 6 - 10 drops as I recall, but I use a bit more because my first go seemed too waxy.

I’ve had good luck using a disposable foil pie pan over a saucepan of boiling water and then pouring the resulting mixture into an Altoids tin to form a nice neat block. Llining the Altoids tin with foil or wax paper (which can be discarded later) makes the block easier to remove once it’s cool.

:slight_smile:

Hi Clark,

Sorry for the delayed reply here, I just got back from a vaction in Florida. Unfortunately I’m at work at the moment and only have a second, but will reply in depth as soon as I can. In the mean time, here’s the short of it:

You tenon is absorbing moisture and swelling, which can cause major problems. My suggestion for the moment is this: Oil the flute well, and don’t play it for a few days. I’ll write more later.

Lorenn

Thanks Cat, do I have to melt it all up now? Its such a nice little block of beeswax in a little clear box. :sunglasses:

I’m looking forward to what Loren has to say too, in case its not just the built up gunk.

Hookay, I’ll see what I can fit in here before my computer time (at the library) is up:

Back to swelling boxwood tenons to start (will address the “wax on the cork build-up issue” as time allows):

Clark,

As I mentioned, the problem you’re having is that the tenon is absorbing moisture as you play. The spit… er, “water vapor” :stuck_out_tongue: and water, enter through the end grain on the edge of the tenon joint, as well as through the bore inside the tenon. In the short term a (boxwood) instrument with an unsealed bore and end grain will swell quite rapidly, and then shrink back to the normal size somewhat less rapidly. In the long term you can suffer permanently out of round tenons (very bad because they can become so out of round you won’t be able to put the flute together) and or cracks (actually, somewhat less bad in many cases.)

Many makers who use Boxwood on a consistent basis seal the bores of their instruments as part of the standard process, others seal both the bore and exterior, which is what we typically do at vH. For some reason I was thinking that I had heard Peter Noy did seal his Boxwood instruments, but perhaps not, you should contact him to find out. Unfortunately, some makers of “Irish” style flutes don’t do any sealing. I think this is simply because they don’t get much call for Boxwood flutes, and so don’t have a lot of experience with the wood, which is understandable.

You can sand some cork off the tenons, which will, for now, improve the socket/tenon fit, and reduce the chance of cracking a socket or tenon, but of course this just treats the symptom, rather than the disease.

Okay, then how do we treat the problem? Well, as things tend to go in circles a bit, this takes us back to oiling, among other things, and although I normally recommend against it, you could oil your flute daily, which aside from being messy, is a pain. Frequent oiling will slow the rate at which water gets into your flute, not so much because it’s a barrier (studies show most oils are virtually transparent to water vapor), but rather because the water must displace the oil, before being absorbed.

So, I’m contradicting myself, right? I mean I did tell you not to oil boxwood like crazy, didn’t I? Yes, I did say that, and I stand by it, as long as you aren’t having radical swelling problems. However if your instrument wasn’t sealed, and the wood is going radically swelling when you play, then one valid option is oiling constantly, but it’s a short term solution, and no guarantee, so proceed with the oil bathing at your own risk. This will, over time, change the color of your instrument pretty radically, btw.

Another safe trick you can try is to buy some extra thin superglue and apply over the end grain of the tenon, just on the very edge. Apply one coat, let dry, and then repeat. This should help some, won’t hurt the flute, and is reversible, however I’ve had mixed results, with this approach, and I’ve rarely found it a complete solution.

The best long term solution, in my experience, is to completely seal at least the bore. As I’ve said, we’ve learned over the years that this is a must on all boxwood instruments, because the wood is naturally just too reactive to changes in humidity, even when the wood has seasoned for over 20 years. I can tell you that proper sealing positively works the vast majority of the time, because I consistently see instruments (ours and other makers) that were made, 15, 20, and 30 years ago, and typically the ones that have been sealed are in excellent condition, very little warp age or cracking, while the unsealed boxwood instruments virtually always have significant issues.

Clark, at this point my advice would be to contact Noy and see if he would be willing to seal the bore of your instrument. I know it won’t be much fun to ship it off for a while, but in the long run, that’s the best “permanent” fix, IMO. It may be tempting (for some folks) to try bore sealing at home, but I’d really recommend against it, particularly on keyed flutes, it does take a bit of experience to get right, and some sealers are permanent, so if you do a poor job, you’re stuck with the results.

Good luck Clark, and let us know how it turns out.

Loren

P.S. Sealing a flute’s bore typically will change the tone a bit (for those who are sensitive to such things :stuck_out_tongue: Typically, with boxwood, the tone becomes somewhat harder and more focused, just how much depends on the sealer and the coating thickness.

P.P.S. Wax and cork grease can build up on corks causing a tight fit. It’s usually a good idea to clean your corks thoughroughly before sanding - often instruments come across my desk with complaints from the owner that the socket/tenon fit is too tight, and it is, however once I clean both the socket and tenon and cork, the fit is usually just right, or even a bit loose! :boggle: So I’d suggest folks don’t start sanding their corks until they are certain the tight fit isn’t due to build-up o

Not that we will do such a thing,
but how does one go about sealing a flute?

Contacting Noy is plainly a good idea!

I have a boxwood Olwell and, while the tenon swells
a bit when I play it a lot, it’s never been a problem.
No point, just a report.

Very nice treatise, Loren! I’m glad you added the part about people who are sensitive to the boxwood sound. I love the way that the sound of a boxwood flute will change depending on the amount of moisture in it, and how it sometimes changes as you’re playing it.

I have a couple of 100+year-old boxwood flutes that have no warpage problems. One of them is in absolutely perfect shape. Of course, I know these things self-select, and I do realize that boxwood tenons can present problems. Last night, for the first time this year, my Bleazey was tight again. The tenon gets a little eccentric, and I can feel wood on wood. It’s only a winter thing, and I’ll try the superglue on the endgrain thing whenever it gets back to normal shape.

The clear answer here is to call Peter Noy himself and ask for his input.

Chris