Oiling, Moisture and Cracking

Irish Flute
1

I’m quoting SuiZen from the thread on Bamboo, regarding oiling:

On 2003-01-17 12:37, SuiZen wrote:

There are two schools of thought on oiling. Some say oil periodically, and others say not to all. For the oilers, many different recommendations on which oils to use and not to use.

You want to avoid low and high temperatures. Also, if the flute is cold, warm it up (e.g., under you shirt or with your hands) before playing. You need to keep it humid. I put my bamboo flute, a shakuhachi, in a plastic bag with a small damp sponge.

http://members.aol.com/feadog/shaku_stor.jpg

Bill

My woodwind repair shop in town reccomends doing this with all woodwinds, Irish Flutes and antique wood flutes included. They say the oil doesnt actually penetrate the wood. They showed me a piece of blackwood that they immersed in oil for 1 week then cut open. THe wood was bone dry inside. They say that bore oil will keep moisture from seeping in irregularly during playing, but the wood still needs to be kept humid. You can oil your whole life, but in dry climates it will still crack. Now of course this is just what they tell me, I dont have any experience in the area.

They tell me of having to rehydrate instruments by placing them in plastic bags with moist towels for months when they are recovering antiques. They also recomend it for any new or used instrument you acquire, but only for a few days in hydration.

So what are your thoughts on this? I always asumed the oiling was to moisten the wood so it didnt crack, as opposed to keeping the moisture in and preventing large quantities of moisture from soaking in via breath condensate.

-Aaron

2

I’ve literally read hundreds of opinions on oiling.

I like what Skip Healy wrote and has posted on his web site.

“Should I oil?
A controversial issue. Some people I know oil their instruments on an almost daily basis, while others never do. I see about the same rate of cracks in either case. I feel that if you frequently use your instrument (played 3-5 days per week), then oiling is not necessary. Your instrument will always play better after being oiled because the oil greatly reduces air flow resistance inside the bore. It can also help to temporarily close small internal cracks or ill fitting pads. I think that this is a personal preference issue, by and large. I recommend using processed light almond oil (not raw) for both internal and external use.”

I personally follow the maker’s instructions on oiling. This is particulary critical if a warranty is involved. Folkers & Powell guarantee their flutes against cracking, for life, if they’re oiled regularly with raw linseed oil. A lot of people say to avoid raw linseed oil. Of course, what do you do when there are no maker instructions, e.g., in the case of an antique.

At least one maker we all know and regard highly seemed surprised when I asked about oiling. I got the impression he only recommended oiling his blackwood flutes to make the owner think they were in control of their flutes ultimate destiny. Sort of a (not his words), “if it makes your feel good to oil” :slight_smile: . He did provide written instructions, with the flute, including oiling. So, maybe I misinterpreted our phone conversation about oiling.

My shakuhachi (Japanese bamboo flute) instructor told me NOT to oil the flute he sold to me. He told me how, over his many years, he never oiled, and none cracked. However, most of what I’d read said to oil bamboo flutes, and avoid extreme temperature changes and keep humid. I thought oil made the flute look nice, although I doubted it could do anything for a lacquered bore. Before my lesson I wiped, and wiped the flute to remove any trace of oil. However, when my instructor tried my flute, it seemed to slip through his hands, and I was scolded for using oil. I just got a cracked flute back from a $600 repair job. The repairman included a container of walnut oil with the flute. What should I do with the oil?

To oil or not to oil, this is the question :slight_smile: ???

Bill


[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-01-17 20:50 ]

3

The whole oiling debate is interesting to me, because I come from a clarinet background, where the same debate rages.

The Buffet company, which makes some of the finest clarinets in the world, says never to oil. They maintain that the oil does nothing to preserve or protect the wood, and that it will gum up the pads.

My clarinet teacher also strongly opposed oiling the clarinet.

On the other hand, the maintenance guy who I used to use (before I moved away) regularly scolded me for not oiling, insisting it would damage the clarinet.

The clarinet is now about 24 years old, and it’s been oiled exactly once, when it was about four years old. It’s got one crack, in the bell, which happened when the case got knocked open, and it fell against a slate floor. Aside from that, it’s in great shape.

What I find particularly interesting about all of this is that fine wooden clarinets are made from Grenadilla, just like new flutes. Clarinetists don’t seem to have nearly as much trouble with cracking in their instruments. On the other hand, Clarinets have a relatively short lifespan: a regularly played wooden clarinet generally only lasts between 20 and 40 years. (The inside of the bore generally slowly corrodes. Eventually it’s not smooth enough to play well anymore.)

But wooden flutes 150 years old are often still in perfect playing condition.

I don’t understand the sensitivity of flutes to cracking - but I wonder if the obsessiveness of flutists for oiling when they play has something to do with how the bore doesn’t corrode the way it does on a clarinet.

(The other theory on clarinet aging is that while the moisture in a flute is mainly condensation of water from the breath, the moisture in a clarinet is saliva blown in past the reed, and there are some corrosives in your saliva.)

-Mark

4

Mark,

Good to hear from another clarinetist.

I don’t oil my wooden clarinets. I remember posts, on the Sneezy clarinet board, about oiling. I guess it’s a recurring question.

Now that I’m concentrating on flutes again, my horns will stay untouched in their cases. I was concerned about my R-13, but as you say, Buffet says not to oil.

Bill

5

It is my belief that clarinets and the like don’t crack as often as wooden flutes, primarily due to seasoning issues: Most of the major woodwind makers buy huge amounts of wood that they can either afford to house and season naturally for many years, or (more common these days) they use properly seasoned kiln dried wood that is taken to a very precise internal moisture content and so highly stabilized before manufacture.

The typical wooden “Irish” flute maker today does not have that ability - and so the wood they use will often be less well seasoned…and turning flutes from wood that has only seasoned for a year or two, or has been improperly kiln dried, will produce and instrument that is more fragile in terms of how it reacts to changes in humidity.

I believe it was Stuart (or was it Eilam?) who debated with me (off list) on the stability of Cocus flutes. I suggested that Cocus is more prone to cracking than Blackwood, Stuart said hogwash, his old Cocus flute is proof of that. Well, I don’t think so - that flute (the Rudall?) was probably made from highly seasoned wood.

When I first placed the order for my Olwell, Pat told me that he couldn’t gaurantee he’d have any Cocus to make mine from that wood, because all the Cocus he had on hand was spoken for at the time. However he had acquired some Cocus by the time my number came up on his waiting list a year and a half or so later, and so I’m quite lucky to have gotten exactly what I wanted, and I couldn’t be happier! (Cocus allergy aside…)

Now, considering what I just related, do you think the Cocus used to make my flute was as well seasoned as the Cocus used to make Stuart’s Rudall? I can’t say for sure, but I doubt it. And that’s okay, because Patrick was straight up with me, so I knew what I was getting into - Patrick even told me that Cocus is more prone to cracking and that my flute would need more care (oiling and swabbing) early in it’s life.

Anyway, there’s a little more to put in the pipe and smoke for a while…

Loren

6

I don’t know the answer to your question, Loren. So, I’m not actually commenting on what you wrote. I just recalled reading another comment on why flutes/clarinets crack.

Seasoned wood, may have an “internal” imperfection. The flute undergoes expansion and compression stresses due to temperature and moisture changes. These changes lead to a crack at the imperfection. Oiling may help, but can’t prevent some stressing of the wood. This is one, of many explanations, as to why flutes and clarinets crack.

Someone also wrote, “it’s not if a flute will crack, but when will it crack?”.

Bill

[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-01-18 13:24 ]

7

On 2003-01-18 13:21, SuiZen wrote:
I don’t know the answer to your question, Loren. So, I’m not actually commenting on what you wrote. I just recalled reading another comment on why flutes/clarinets crack.

Seasoned wood, may have an “internal” imperfection. The flute undergoes expansion and compression stresses due to temperature and moisture changes. These changes lead to a crack at the imperfection. Oiling may help, but can’t prevent some stressing of the wood. This is one, of many explanations, as to why flutes and clarinets crack.

Someone also wrote, “it’s not if a flute will crack, but when will it crack?”.

I’ve heard that too - but I’m somewhat skeptical. I’ve seen several instruments with very visible flaws in the wood - and they don’t seem any more prone to damage than others.

My Buffet has a very visible flaw in the wood, which can be easily seen inside the bore. But 20-odd years later, it’s never shown a sign of breaking along that stress line.

I’ve known several other people in that situation: the quality of Grenadilla available just ain’t what it used to be, so a lot of the more recent instruments do have visible faults in the wood.

And yet - I’ve never seen a clarinet actually crack along one of those faults in the wood. I’ve seen lots of cracked barrels and bells. (which, I suspect, has more to do with the irregular shape of those parts - the bell is the flare at the end, and the barrell is the part just past the mouthpiece, which has an irregular shape both internally and externally in modern clarinets.) But even in the barrell cracks that I’ve seen, it doesn’t seem to follow the visible stresses in the wood!

-Mark

8

Loren:

I think that you’re right about seasoning being at least part of why flutes seem to be so much more prone to cracking than clarinets. I’m not convinced that it’s the whole story - but proper seasoning of wood does have a dramatic effect on the stability of the wood.

I suspect that the shape of the instrument is the other factor: clarinets are most prone to cracking in the sections that are non-cylindrical; most wooden flutes are almost entirely non-cylindrical.

But I’m left with one question, which I dearly wish I knew how to answer. Why do clarinets age so poorly compared to flutes? Why is it that a 20 year old, frequently played flute is a treasure, but a 20 year old frequently-played clarinet (which is in theory made from better wood) fit mainly for firewood?

If it’s the corrosive saliva issue that I’ve heard, can things like bore-oil provide a coating that will protect it?

-Mark

9

Maybe the fact that the heads of
many flutes are lined with metal,
which won’t shrink when the wood
does, has something to do with
cracking. Are clarinets made
that way?

10

On 2003-01-19 10:18, jim stone wrote:
Maybe the fact that the heads of
many flutes are lined with metal,
which won’t shrink when the wood
does, has something to do with
cracking. Are clarinets made
that way?

No, clarinets are not made that way. Clarinets do not having tuning slides, and the mouthpiece (the clarinet equivalent of the headjoint) is made out of a different material from the rest of the clarinet. (And usually by a different person. Clarinetists obsess over mouthpieces, and everyone has a particular favorite. So clarinets generally come with utterly crappy mouthpieces, because they expect that you’ll be using your own.) In general, the best clarinet mouthpieces are made of polymers, with some players preferring crystal. (Mine is a hard-rubber Gigliotti P.)

The mouthpiece is attached when you put the instrument together using a corked tenon-joint where the mouthpiece attaches to a piece called the barrel. Interestingly, the barrel is the piece most sensitive to cracks on the clarinet. It’s also the piece that is most irregular - rather than being a straight cylinder, both the inner and outer profiles of it are polycylindrical. (Meaning there are several different cylindrical areas, with sections between them transitioning.) Since the barrel is only about 3 or 4 inches long, that much variation in a piece of wood that big is a pretty big deal. But the physics of things dictate that most of the tone is established in the mouthpiece and the barrel, so that variation makes a huge difference.

Anyway… Many flute headjoint cracks, particularly in older instruments, are clearly related to the metal lining. Terry McGee has done some pretty neat work figuring out how to mount a tuning slide inside the headjoint while putting less stress on the wood as it ages. But still, even ignoring the headjoint, flute bodies seem to crack more then clarinet bodies.

Does anyone know enough about wood to be able to say whether things like conic or polycylindrical bores are more susceptible to fractures than cylindrical bores? Could exposing the end of a grain-line create a stress-point where fractures are more likely?

-Mark

11

Hello All,

I’ve never heard anyone say that oiling can be harmful to a woodenflute. I’m not sure if it does anything to protect my instrument, but it removes any dirt that’s collected in the bore and on the outside. I purchased an old E/b Metzler flute; when it arrived it was disgustingly dirty and reaked of cigarettes, I’m guessing the last owner never oiled it. It seems to me that oiling will help to keep your flute clean if nothing else.

Sincerely,
-George

12

The topic of oiling comes up over and over again. This is now the case, again, on the WoodenFlute email list. There’s a lot of interesting information on oiling and which oil to use, some in great detail, from members with lots of experience. I did not, however, read anything that would change my opinion on oiling.

Bill

13

Absolutely right, Bill – no clear winners on this topic, to oil or not, or what oil if you do.
This question of how-well seasoned the wood is seems silly to me, though. If the wood is not well-seasoned, it will probably crack. This is no more true of Irish flutemakers than clarinet makers, other than to say that established clarinet makers are ones that have remained reliable over a greater expanse of years.
Unseasoned wood is the fault of the maker, not of the wood used, or that they are a flutemaker. Stuart’s cocus flute (or all cocus flutes) does not crack because it is well-seasoned. Cocus clearly is not a faulty wood, vs. blackwood, the supposed wood of choice. Improperly seasoned wood is at fault if cocus cracks more, and, in turn, the maker who sold it.
In fact, I believe many of the (better) modern makers go to great lengths to season their woods, regardless of the wood(s) they use. Like clarinet makers, they wait years, or buy aged wood, or kiln-dry them to accellerate the process. There are, of course, makers out there that seem not to wait long enough and have gained the unhealthy rep for flutes cracking. Again, this is not a case of blackwood vs. cocus vs. boxwood, etc., but a matter of what care went into the creation of the flute in the first place, and of the impatience of the flute maker.
An improperly seasoned flute will crack, of almost any wood source, and no amount of oil is going to change that.
I just think the idea that flutes crack more than clarinets because less care went into their making is untrue. More true is that clarinets are not generally taken out to lengthy sessions in a myriad of changing environments and used in quite the same manner as wooden (particularly Irish) flutes.



[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-01-26 15:52 ]

14

On 2003-01-26 15:43, Gordon wrote:
Absolutely right, Bill – no clear winners on this topic, to oil or not, or what oil if you do.
This question of how-well seasoned the wood is seems silly to me, though. If the wood is not well-seasoned, it will probably crack. This is no more true of Irish flutemakers than clarinet makers, other than to say that established clarinet makers are ones that have remained reliable over a greater expanse of years.
Unseasoned wood is the fault of the maker, not of the wood used, or that they are a flutemaker. Stuart’s cocus flute (or all cocus flutes) does not crack because it is well-seasoned. Cocus clearly is not a faulty wood, vs. blackwood, the supposed wood of choice. Improperly seasoned wood is at fault if cocus cracks more, and, in turn, the maker who sold it.
In fact, I believe many of the (better) modern makers go to great lengths to season their woods, regardless of the wood(s) they use. Like clarinet makers, they wait years, or buy aged wood, or kiln-dry them to accellerate the process. There are, of course, makers out there that seem not to wait long enough and have gained the unhealthy rep for flutes cracking. Again, this is not a case of blackwood vs. cocus vs. boxwood, etc., but a matter of what care went into the creation of the flute in the first place, and of the impatience of the flute maker.
An improperly seasoned flute will crack, of almost any wood source, and no amount of oil is going to change that.
I just think the idea that flutes crack more than clarinets because less care went into their making is untrue. More true is that clarinets are not generally taken out to lengthy sessions in a myriad of changing environments and used in quite the same manner as wooden (particularly Irish) flutes.



[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-01-26 15:52 ]

I don’t think anyone meant to suggest that the flutemakers are being deliberately negligent in their seasoning of the wood.

But the fact is, Buffet can afford to spend a couple of million dollars a year stockpiling Grenadilla, and carefully aging it in perfect, climate controlled conditions. When they kiln dry wood, they can afford to ridiculous sums of money getting the very best kiln money can buy, and they can hire a full time person whose job is nothing but taking care of the wood.

A craftsman working on instruments in his private shop doesn’t generally have the money to stockpile so much wood for aging; they can’t afford the equipment to do climate control like the big guys; they can’t afford the same kind of kilns as the big guys; and they need to do everything, from wood selection, to aging and kilning, to working all on their own. They just don’t have access to the same kind of resources as a big manufacturer, and it wouldn’t be at all surprising if that has an effect.

That’s not a slam on the craftsmen, who are honest, conscientious, hard-working artists. But it is a real phenomenon, which probably does have some effect on the stability of the wood that they use.

-Mark

15

On 2003-01-27 14:12, MarkCC wrote:
A craftsman working on instruments in his private shop doesn’t generally have the money to stockpile so much wood for aging; they can’t afford the equipment to do climate control like the big guys; they can’t afford the same kind of kilns as the big guys; and they need to do everything, from wood selection, to aging and kilning, to working all on their own. They just don’t have access to the same kind of resources as a big manufacturer, and it wouldn’t be at all surprising if that has an effect.

That’s not a slam on the craftsmen, who are honest, conscientious, hard-working artists. But it is a real phenomenon, which probably does have some effect on the stability of the wood that they use.

-Mark

I didn’t think there was any deliberate slam on flute makers from any one on this forum, just that I think the supposition is wrong.
First, wooden flutemakers don’t need to stockpile anywhere near the amount of wood a major clarinet maker does, so the economics of it all go down in size as well. Less wood, smaller kilns, etc. Since I’ve read from many makers who go on a length about their kiln-drying or real-time drying (buying already old wood, for eg), it seems to me most (not all) of the makers out there are aware of the need to age wood, and do so. I do believe there are one or two that don’t, or don’t do it as carefully, and those few makers do have a rep for cracked flutes.
I guess my point was that, since aging wood for stability is a given, it seemed to be outside of the oil/no oil, keep humidified, played in, etc. debate. In the event that I’m wrong, and most if not all flute makers are not capable of stabilizing wood before they make their instruments, then these debates (oil, etc.) are moot, as all the flutes are in serious danger from cracking, and we should only be buying antiques. But I don’t think so.

16

I just got a one year old LeHart flute. The bore was very dry, so I decided to oil it, before playing the flute and adding moisture.

My thinking is to use the oil that the maker recommends. However, I don’t know what LeHart recommends, and I don’t want to wait to find out.

So, off to the local health food store to get flaxseed oil. There were a couple of different brands. There’s so much writing on the container, that I’m not sure what brand I purchased. Some of the writing on the label is "Spectrum - Veg-Omega3 - Cold Pressed - organic - Flax Oil. The ingredient reads - cold pressed certified organic unrefined flaxseed oil, and that’s the only ingredient.

I had flaxseed oil in the past and it looked like olive oil. This oil looks opaque and yellow, somewhat like a beaten egg yolk. It doesn’t smell like oil, certainly not rancid, and certainly not like my real raw linseed oil.

So, does this appear to be pure flaxseed oil, i.e., the type that’s good for oiling wooden flutes?

Bill



[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-02-01 17:16 ]

17

Yep, that’s flaxseed. The darker, thicker linseed is boiled, which is very problematic for flutes - dries too fast and gummy, and most likely has other additives/hardeners which are toxic. The raw organic stuff is what you have.
I just started using it and found it works quite well, better, I think, than the bore oil, and definitely better than almonds. Because it’s a drying oil, it doesn’t need to be reapplied too often.
Ironically, after it dried, I could smell that “oil paint linseed” smell from my old art studio, faint, but definitely there, but not before it dried.
Treat your Lehart like a new flute – small playing warmups each day (10 to no more than 30 minutes) for about a week. Then it can probably go an hour. I know you didn’t ask, but oil will protect, but too much moisture (a full practice or session) could be too much at once, even though it’s not a new flute, since it was so dry.
By the way – congrats on that flute. I was thinking of responding/buying it myself, but financially chickened out, even though it was a terrific buy. I think you’ll be really happy with it, once it’s broken in.
All the best,
Gordon

[ This Message was edited by: Gordon on 2003-02-01 19:46 ]

18

So, here’s a followup question:

I just got an antique boxwood 4-key that’s in perfect condition – no cracks, no nothin’ (well, the cork’s undone from the endpiece, but that’s it). My instinct is to break it in, keep it in a humidor, but what about oiling? Nothing is known about its history.

TIA, Charlie

19

I’d oil it before it starts to absorb moisture, i.e., before you start playing. Follow the typical break-in ritual for a new flute, i.e., play 10 to 20 minutes per day, increasing duration every couple of days. I think flaxseed oil is the way to go with a boxwood flute.

I just got a used blackwood flute, a couple of days ago, that appeared to be pretty dry. I oiled it, and started playing it a couple of hours later.

Bill


[ This Message was edited by: SuiZen on 2003-02-03 17:01 ]