Sindt waiting time reduced to one week

Whistle
21

I just visited two Lark shops, one
in Mendocino,one in Seattle.
It’s an odd combination of folk
music instruments which are pretty
much the same in each shop (with
some variation) and a sort of
heavy duty retail idea underlying it.
Usually you feel that people
with shops full of some pretty
arcane folk instruments love
folk instruments; but Lark seems
much more in love with selling
things that are folk instruments.
I don’t know if it’s good or
bad, but it’s strange. I couldn’t
really check prices–some seemed
pretty good to me. But the
ambience is RETAIL
pretending to be something else.

There were some very lovely
flutes, in fact, some mopane
Casey Burns flutes–which I
played and thought quite good
(I know this may be controversial),
lots of shaws, Chieftains, etc.
I’d go there in person, but I
don’t think I would shop by
mail.

22

Ya know, it’s strange… the C natural problem only exists on his D whistles. I have a complete set and none of the others seem to be effected.

He probably knows that if he fixed the Cnat issue on his D whistles, so many people would order one, he’d be swamped with new orders!

23

The more those in our community who make a living making and selling books, CDs, instruments and other works of art and scholarship educate us about how the economics of their side of the business works, the better informed we’ll all be.

I’ll respond to that Wombat, I hope I’m not sticking my neck out. I’m an instrument maker and have the added bonus of having done a small business course, so I’ll respond in appropriate terms. The first thing to consider is cost of production, that includes material cost, cost of labour for production and recovery of some overhead costs such as rent, phone, power and so on, and if you are lucky, you can add a small profit. Now, I regard that as my wholesale price, if someone wants to buy numbers of my instruments and sell them for me, they can have them at that price, and the mark-up they apply is usually 100% ie. they sell it for twice the price they bought it for.
The other more usual event is that I have to sell my instruments myself, one way or another, and there are various ways of doing that, but all of them involve considerable time and money. I need to increase my price to cover those extra costs and quite honestly, increasing the cost to the same price as the retailer is now selling for, works out at pretty close to being what is required. The end result is that both the maker and the retailer end up selling at the same price. I think that is fair, to the retailer, to the maker and also to the customer, who should be paying a price from either sales outlet which reflects the cost structures involved in making and selling instruments.

24

On 2002-11-18 19:31, Wombat wrote:

Well this perspective is very helpful. I’d like to see a saintly reply. Someone needed to say this. Why were people picking on Lark in the Morning when absolutely nobody was condemning individuals who sell secondhand and mark up for precisely the same reason? (That’s not just a rhetorical question, I’d like to know—can anyone tell me?)

I think it’s an excellent question. There’s nothing wrong with buying something, marking it up, and selling it. It’s called “capitalism”, and economies are built upon that very idea unless you live in a communist country.

Is it worth $80 to save a 8-month wait? Some people might think so, and it seems Lark is banking on it. It seems a smart move for them, as they can buy several, and then have them in stock for those individuals who have more money than patience. If they don’t sell at that price, they’re free to change the price later to reflect the demand in the marketplace. I don’t think they’re gouging. They’re simply looking for what the market will bear. (Supply? Demand? Do I smell some economics happening here?).

Don’t think a Sindt is worth $165? Don’t buy one from Lark. Put yourself on the 8-month waiting list, and congratulate yourself on saving yourself some cash (then again, I personally don’t think they’re worth $80 due to the C-Natural issue). I’m not gonna buy a $14.00 Generation whistle from Shannaquay, either. While these prices may seem high to some (or even many) people, there’s nothing inherently wrong with setting a price that is supported by the market.

I’ve been in the software business, and done some publishing…and a 100% markup is not uncommon in both of those markets (to add to the people who’ve discussed their experience with markups). In the furniture business the markup can be as high as 300%! Lark in the Morning has salespeople, real estate, utilities, taxes, and other overhead that they have to cover through the difference between their purchase price, and their sale price.

But maybe I’m just wrong on this issue..Perhaps some right-minded individual would be willing to fund a whistle clearing house. They could buy several whistles of each brand (or maybe just the brands with long waits), in several keys. They could hold onto these whistles for an indeterminate amount of time, and then sell them to C&Fers at cost whenever we got around to buying them. Chris, Az…ya think one of you might be willin? I’d like to pre-order an O’Riordan or a Copeland if so. :wink:

Greg


[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-11-19 09:14 ]

25

Well, most of the last few posts make sens to me, but I’m still arguing about the fact that Sindt, and other makers, have a waiting list, so it’s not as if they needed the shops to sell more whistles. THIS is the big difference between what we’re talking about and the capitalism-based marketplace. Starting from there, I don’t see how selling whistles, which have waiting lists, at twice the price can be justified. Well, it’s not in my mind, but we’ve all different perspective of things and that’s what makes it fun.

Let’s be realistic. Let’s say that three years ago I bought 10 Olwell’s, and sold them for twice the price last year. Two years ago I again bought 10, and again sold them for twice the price. You can be sure that if Olwell learns about this, he won’t be happy. Maybe I’m wrong, but I wouldnt be. His buisness wasnt meant to be used like that, and even though you could argue that we live in a capitalist world, I don’t think Olwell would sell me flutes anymore if he’d learned about all this.

26

On 2002-11-19 10:31, Azalin wrote:
Let’s be realistic. Let’s say that three years ago I bought 10 Olwell’s, and sold them for twice the price last year. Two years ago I again bought 10, and again sold them for twice the price. You can be sure that if Olwell learns about this, he won’t be happy. Maybe I’m wrong, but I wouldnt be. His buisness wasnt meant to be used like that, and even though you could argue that we live in a capitalist world, I don’t think Olwell would sell me flutes anymore if he’d learned about all this.

Well, I do see what you’re saying, Az. We just have different perspectives, is all. Did you know that in Mexico (and in other places) you can pay someone to wait](http://www.ravenchronicles.org/raven/rvback/issues/0497/yas0497.htm%22%3Ewait) in line for you? I think I remember even a web service where you could hire someone over the internet to do your waiting for you.

To me, that’s all Lark is doing..waiting in line on a speculative basis, and then re-selling the instruments. These instruments are generally gonna go to folks who are impulse-buyers, and who don’t like to wait–I count myself in that category. A lot of folks like that will skip a wait on a Sindt to get a whistle now, even if the brand they end up getting is not their first choice. The only time I’ve been on an extremely long waiting list (for a sterling Copeland D), I ended up having to drop off of it the month my whistle was supposed to be made because of job fluctuations, and that just sucked.

Personally, if I was a maker, I wouldn’t care if someone had a business of re-selling my whistles at a profit to folks who couldn’t wait, so long as it didn’t strongly affect my ability to get whistles in regular folks hands, and everyone had to wait like everyone else. In this specific case, after all, we’re talking about 6 whistles here, not 600. I’m pretty sure those 6 didn’t push John months behind on his production list.

Let me ask you to look at things this way: Would it be as bad if John had sold his whistles to Lark for $40, and they were selling them for John’s list price? Either way, Lark has a mark-up, but in the latter case (which is a more traditional wholesaler situation), John would be out some $240. How about Burke whistles? I’m sure that Mike Burke sells them to Song of the Sea for far less than than he’d sell one to you. When he gets behind (as he sometimes does), is it still right for Song of the Sea to make a profit because they have some in stock? The same might be asked of HMT and Hobgoblin (both of which carry Thin Weasels, I do believe). When Glen Schultz was sick a while back, should these stores have stopped shipping any of their in-stock whistles during the time Glen wasn’t making them?

Of course, our differing views of things could have a lot to do with where we live. I did grow up in the US–an intensely capitalistic society. I understand that Canada and other places are less so, and it is sometimes nice to see folks who know that money isn’t everything.

27

I’m really glad you guys have taken up my question. This sort of issue keeps coming up but there hasn’t been much discussion of the principles involved; moral principles and business principles. (There’s been a tendency to get stuck on (and into) personalities and companies rather than to thrash out the principles involved.)

My background and outlook isn’t intensely capitalistic but, as a record collector, I’m well aware of the futility of railing against market forces. There’s a standing joke in that game to the effect that nobody ever believes a record is worth what the price guides say it is worth when they’re looking to buy, but if they ever want to sell a record it is always worth at least what the guides recommend. That inclines me (slightly) to Wandering_Whistler’s view which is, I take it, that it’s OK for both individuals and companies to mark up if the market can bear it. Sooner or later, an old whistle becomes a collector’s item and you would expect it to be pricey if it is rare and sought after. Why is later OK but sooner not OK?

Azalin, I suppose you must be opposed to individuals marking up in this way or do you see a difference between an individual marking up and a company doing so?

Bodhrans, thanks for the details which we all need to know. I’m not sure though what you think about the case under discussion. Should John Sindt be selling cheaper wholesale (if he wants to sell wholesale)? Are Lark justified in pricing the way they have? One factor might well be this. I take it that one reason that makers sell more cheaply to retailers is that retailers do the marketing for them. But I suspect that John doesn’t have to do much in the way of marketing at all—people come to him. That’s why his waiting list is so long. I know several high-end makers of various instruments actively discouraging people from ordering. People like this have no reason at all to sell more cheaply to retailers.

28

Wanderer,

I understand your point of view, yet all of the whistle makers you used as an example don’t have much of a waiting list, and thus benefit from selling in shops. I don’t think that Burke has a one year waiting list, and making a few batch of whistles for different shops I think is very good for his buisness. Now, I don’t remember seeing many Copelands in shops. Do you remember when Hardy told Goldie to go back in his workshop and work on his backlog? Well, the thing is, Goldie has a backlog, but Phil doesnt have much of a backlog and thus benefits from selling his whistles to shops.

I remember that I’ve bought my first whistle at Song of Sea, which had a very good customer service by the way, and it was an Overton Low D. I’m still puzzled as to why such whistles were available from the shop, but at least they werent selling them at twice the price. They could have, but I’m not sure that Goldie/Overton would have been happy with such a thing.

Anyway, I would like it if any whistle maker with a backlog could tell us his/her view about this.

Bottom line, if someone just discovered that he absolutely wanted a Sindt, and that he was happy to pay 160$ and have it now, I don’t see much wrong about this, since as you were saying, Lark seems to have only a few Sindt anyway. If they had 100 in stock, that would be another story.

29

Wombat,

To answer your question, I don’t see anything wrong with an indivudual doing this if the maker knows about it. I dare anyone to start doing that and tell the maker “well, I need four of your flutes as I intend on selling them twice the price in two years”. If the maker agrees with this, then I don’t see anything wrong with the individual, and I would then focus my attention on the maker :wink:

30

Nice one Az. [A nudge is as good as a wink to someone who can’t handle smilies.]

31

On 2002-11-19 11:26, Wombat wrote:
Wandering_Whistler’s view which is, I take it, that it’s OK for both individuals and companies to mark up if the market can bear it. Sooner or later, an old whistle becomes a collector’s item and you would expect it to be pricey if it is rare and sought after. Why is later OK but sooner not OK?

Yup, this is pretty much it. I’m not totally laizzes faire concerning market forces; sometimes some regulation needs to be done to prevent abuses of the market. But in this case, I trust John Sindt to regulate his own sales to music stores so that his ‘normal folk’ customers aren’t unduly inconvenienced by greater wait times. A few whistles in stores, even on a yearly basis, certainly helps entice impatient folks like me to get a whistle we’d otherwise normally give a skip. If John starts primarily selling to music stores, then we can expect that he’s probably changed his business focus, for better or worse.

32

Well as one who has been waiting for 8 months I have only 10 whistles wait now so my xmas present from my husband is looking good. I have followed this thread with interest. My Tutor had his Sindt on Saturday and it was a delight to hear it. He also has a Dixon D tuneable. I’m a bit worried about the references to problems with the C nat? on the Sindt and would be grateful for comments on this and if it is a problem then how to finger correctly as there is enough friction between whistlers in a group I know off locally. :slight_smile:

33

Should John Sindt be selling cheaper wholesale (if he wants to sell wholesale)? Are Lark justified in pricing the way they have? One factor might well be this. I take it that one reason that makers sell more cheaply to retailers is that retailers do the marketing for them. But I suspect that John doesn’t have to do much in the way of marketing at all—people come to him. That’s why his waiting list is so long. I know several high-end makers of various instruments actively discouraging people from ordering. People like this have no reason at all to sell more cheaply to retailers.

Theres a few points there Wombat, I’ll try to cover them from my point of view.
For 6 whistles, no, a small discount maybe but not full wholesale price, the retailer will not be actively selling such a small number of whistles, they are only there for “opportunity” sales.
Yes, a 100% mark-up is normal and indeed well justified. Retailers have costs too!
People don’t “come to you” cold. Even if it happened at some time in the past the marketing must be done. sometimes though it gets to the stage where you can ease off a little and do a some cost recovery on the basis of past efforts.
For a good craftsman, the question of production is a curly one. I for one will not make whistles if my heart isn’t in it on a particular day. If making whistles becomes drudgery then quality suffers, and I won’t sell the instrument, so why bother. Production is limited. Some well known makers employ journeymen to do the grunt work and concentrate on the voicing of the instruments, and I think that is fair and ethical too. It is one way of optimising available valuable time and increases the output from the maker.
Discouraging people from ordering may well be one response to overcome the need to have days off, and still be able to sell at what the craftsman considers an equitable price. Reduce demand to control price for a limited supply!

34

On 2002-11-18 15:34, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
LOL!
Ya know, it’s strange… the C natural problem only exists on his D whistles. I have a complete set and none of the others seem to be effected.
Chris

Could you elaborate on this or point me to an appropriate thread. I searched and could not find it.
Thanks, Mike

35

The C natural on the Sindt D needs
to be half-holed, it’s meant to
be by JS, who thinks half holing
is the best way to finger a Cnat
on any whistle. He recommends that if you
don’t half hole, go oxxooo and
underblow (see the interview with
Dale on the main website).

The crossfingering works better
on the C sindt and it’s just about
right, on the Bb and A, so the
D is the only sindt where it’s
a real issue.

I have found that half-holing the
C nat has really improved my
playing–so the Sindt D is fine
with me. Also I found the
C nat crossfingering-underblowing
remedy good enough, especially
for transient notes played at
speed. Longer ones I half-holed,
until finally I came to half-
hole just about always.

So here’s an opportunity to
improve one’s technique
considerably, IMHO.
Half-holing the c nat
helps one play faster
and more accurately–
it takes time and patience…
Complex fingerings and
transitions become simple.

36

Well, I’m certainly not going to learn a new “technique” just because of one single whistle. I find the cross-fingered CNat on my other whistles, like Silkstone, to be dead on on my tuner, and I don’t have to under-blow.

I think that I would suggest beginners to play the Cnat half-holed, but for me it’s too late now, and I think that the Sindt D is non standard.

37

Sometimes I just get suspicious of a business’s profit margins. A union leader from the mid 1800’s says it fairly well for me, albeit metaphorically:

With adequate profit, capital is very bold. A certain 10% will ensure its employment anywhere; 20% certain will produce eagerness; 50% positive audacity; 100% will make it ready to trample all human laws; 300%, and there is not a crime at which it will scruple nor risk it will not run, even to the chance of its owner being hanged–T.J. Dunning

Companies that send me multiple copies of the same catalog make me suspicious–are the prices higher because of waste? (I must tell them to stop mailing me catalogs.)

I know I am in no position to judge unless I am fully aware of overhead and hidden costs.

I give Lark in the Morning the benefit of the doubt until further notice.

Thank you everybody for participating in this dialog! I found myself agreeing with all sides…

Lisa

38

On 2002-11-19 16:44, jim stone wrote:
Half-holing the c nat
helps one play faster
and more accurately–
it takes time and patience…
Complex fingerings and
transitions become simple.

Really? Just wondering Jim if you have tackled some of the common Irish reels that feature complex passages rocking back and forth from C-natural. For example, The Humours of Scarriff, Maid in the Cherry Tree, The Flogging Reel, or even the good old Gravel Walk to Grainne?

Half-holing experts can handle the difficult passages with ease of course. But if you’re suggesting that your average learner could master them faster, more simply and more accurately with half-holing than with cross-fingering, I’m very sceptical.

I’d venture that far more practice is required, and that after all those hours of practice the result, in all but the most successful half-holers’ hands, is imprecise and mushy.

I don’t really know of course because I learned with cross-fingering. But even if I’m wrong, I think John Sindt’s decision not to address this issue with his D whistles, even after receiving many requests to do so, is a poor show.

39

I am self taught by ear and half holed the c nat however on some fast pieces going straight to b I can just roll the whistle. However I have used cross fingering on other tunes. So I guess you play the fiongering to suit the tune.

40

Rocking back and forth to C natural
is easy if you can half hole–that’s
one of the benefits. Another
is the ‘hands on’ feeling one gets,
of almost kneading the tone with one’s
hands.

But I agree that it would take a
lot longer for a newbie whistler
to learn to play tunes this way,
for precisely the reasons you
mentioned. Nonetheless some good
teachers (e.g. Cathal McConnell
and also J. Madden, I believe)
start people out this way.
Cathal makes no mention of
crossfingering the C natural
in his instruction book–at least
the one I read a few years ago.

I started half holing about three
or four years in. I would recommend
(if anybody were foolish enough
to ask me) to begin learning
with the cross fingering on a
whistle that plays the C natural
in tune cross fingered–as Azalin
points out, there are plenty.
Then somewhere along the line
start half holing on long notes,
even if your whistle is in tune
cross fingered. Keep trying to
do more–time and patience–and
sooner or later you’ll find you
can do it quickly. Personally
I found this process worth the
trouble. I really got into it
when I got a Sindt D, but I
don’t think I would have started
playing with one.

It helps to play sometimes
intoxicated.