Just noticed that the Copeland Low D is now selling at 409$ a piece. Wow, I got one myself already, paid about 350$ for it, but I can’t help myself being amazed by the price it reached. I know the Copeland Low D is amazing, it’s my little baby and I don’t think I could survive without it, but geeze, with 409$ you could get a Nintendo GameCube and a 5 games… okay okay, you could almost get a Blackwood Copley flute… but Copeland is making the right decision, because I guess that people will buy anyway, whatever the price is.
Now, the real capitalist question: how much do you think a Copeland Low D costs to produce, and how much profit is the maker making out of each Low D? (or any whistle anyway). Just curious.
No, many people will not buy at ridiculous prices, I wouldn’t come near a rip-off like that and neither would many other people.
I don’t know about whistles, I do know a good quality keyless wooden flute with tuning slide can easily be made in less than a day using about 20 pounds worth of high quality blackwood. I guess a whistle wouldn’t take much more effort and material. In all these things it’s labour you pay for and your man is certainly not under-quoting himself.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-15 13:39 ]
To be honnest, I also think that’s a ripoff because whatever good the instrument is, it’s just not worth it when you know how inexpensive it must be to produce. (compared to price it sells). The problem is that it seems there’s not enough makers on the market, that’s why makers can easily overprice their products. Only 5 years ago, people would have laughed when told that some whistles would cost as much as 300$US…
Well, I’m not sure that I’m the most unbiased poster, but I’m probably also one of the folks on the board that has the actual information so…(feel free to chime in here Colin, Mack, David, JimR, Paul etc.)
Profit? Well, I’m not too sure how you’re defining it. I figured out a couple months back that if I were to be paid as a worker for my whistles I would make around $5.00 and hour. Of course, if I don’t pay myself then everything above expenses is profit.
Since I run an open book business I don’t mind telling you that I’ve got somewhere between $60-70 in disposables (materials) plus some mysterious number (mysterious because I don’t really know) in capital expenses - things like lathes and mills and hammers and calipers and drills. Depending upon how long I want to depreciate my equipment, I probably make $40 per whistle, maybe a bit more if I’m particularly efficient.
Having seen and played Mr. Copeland’s whistles I’m sure that he puts in a considerable amount of time into his instruments as well. On top of this, he has multiple employees to pay as well as a complete shop to outfit (my shop expenses are considerably less since I’m able to run it out of my home). Also, things like R&D take materials and time.
So the simple answer is that I would bet that a 2-7% profit could be attainable. In this case I’m meaning first paying for all his expenses, his employees and himself and then what is left over for re-investment or simply take home extras.
This is entirely a guess, but one based upon personal experience. I hope that this didn’t sound like an advertisement for handmade whistles, but my hope is to show folks that the prices on handmade whistles are not random and they’re not because whistle makers like to be part of the Chiffy Aristocracy. It simply takes time and materials to put them together.
That’s my thinking, anyway.
Erik
CEO and head groundskeeper “Handmade Whistles-b-Us.”
My preceeding post was written when there were no additional posts to this thread (it took me a while to compose it) so please don’t view it as a response to the above comments… I was just answering the first question.
Keep in mind that some people are living off instrument-making businesses. I don’t know what sort of or even if Micheal Copeland has other sources of income, but for all I know, he may just make whistles. He has to EAT too you know…
Doctors, lawyers, and executives make more per hour than the best paid whistlemaker. I coulda been one of them, but retired carpenters usually don’t take up those things as hobbies. Some of us make whistles for fun and profit. I just do it for fun. My wife loves her hubby’s hobby 'cause it does pay for the materials. Sometimes I trade several of mine for one expensive one. No cash outlay makes my wife happy with my collecting. We have a very peaceful retirement and 39 wonderful years together, though she HAS been bugging me a little about raising my prices! Thom and I have been talking about that , too. Hey, maybe a little profit margin wouldn’t be so bad!
Mack AND Joan
Oh, and my whistlemaking equipment is all retired carpentry stuff which I can’t depreciate any more, but I can deduct all expenses.
I’d have to disagree with the characterization of the price of a Copeland as a “rip-off.” It’s a fair market price which no one is required to pay. There’s lots of cheaper competition.
Dale
In reality, I agree that no one is required to pay any price for a whistle. Complain about taxes and grocery prices, but let the whistlemaker be worthy of his hire (and reputation!).
Mack (between whistle demand load with time to philosophize—possibly preceding poetry)or not…
I’ve talked at length
with Michael Copeland in the past about
the labor that goes into making his whistles, the difficulties of working with a conical bore, the new equipment he’s purchased to keep up with production demands, the rather extraordinary level
of craftsmanship that goes into those
whistles, the fact that they are likely
to last for literally hundreds of
years, and so on. I certainly don’t
think they’re a rip-off in the sense
that there is an attempt to gouge
money from customers–this is
how Michael earns a living (I believe
Jim R. may supplement his income
with other work) and costs are going up.
As to whether the whistles are worth
the price, I think they
are, but of course that’s
an individual call.
I have two Copeland’s and they are worth it. The sound quality is far superior to the inexpensive whistles. If you’ve ever held one of these babies in your hands you’d swear you were holding a piece of finely crafted jewelry. That’s how much care goes into them and I can’t imagine the time involved in crafting them but it must be considerable or there wouldn’t be such a long wait for them. If they were quick and easy to make they’d be cranking them out by the hundreds a week.
On the positively selfish side of this I have the satisfaction of knowing my whistles are not just holding their value but possibly increasing.
On 2001-12-15 13:34, Peter Laban wrote:
No, many people will not buy at ridiculous prices, I wouldn’t come near a rip-off like that and neither would many other people.
I don’t know about whistles, I do know a good quality keyless wooden flute with tuning slide can easily be made in less than a day using about 20 pounds worth of high quality blackwood. I guess a whistle wouldn’t take much more effort and material. In all these things it’s labour you pay for and your man is certainly not under-quoting himself.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-15 13:39 ]
Ha! Peter, You’re so funny, you’ll say anything to get a rise out of people won’t you? You’ve become the resident pet troll, what a hoot!
Sure, a top quality keyless woodenflute with a tuning slide can be made in less than a day…Ha Ha Ha! I’m sure Chris Wilkes, Hammy, and Patrick Olwell would appreciate your humour. Especially Chris with his 6 year waiting list. Yeah, yeah, we know: He and the others are a bunch of slackers; if they’d just work a few more hours everyday, they too would be able to complete an entire flute in less than a day, rather than taking the better part of a week. Why don’t you go teach them how it’s done? Better yet, I could use keyed flute - why don’t you make me one and ship it on Monday, shouldn’t be any challange for ya.
I also love the way you insult Copeland, How funny! Another great troll on your part - insult one of the most respected whistle makers in the world (one who’s built quite a few flutes as well), just to see how people will react. Damn, you’ve got it down Petey. What a card…
Having never had the privilege of owning or playing a Copeland, I won’t address the basic topic, but to reply to Mack…
Yeah, pal, yours are underpriced. I have way too many whistles, some of which cost me a great deal more, but I have few indeed that are better than my Hoover Narrow Bore - at any price!
One day to make a blackwood flute? On Terry McGee’s site, he explains how the wood sits for 6 months before he touches it. Then he roughs out a flute and it sit for another 6 months. I’ve done a little woodworking and it takes a long time for me to sand a piece to a much rougher finish than a flute has to be brought to. Then there’s time for making fittings, etc. It’s my belief that making flutes and whistles by hand is a labor of love for most of these makers. I doubt that Michael Copeland is getting rich making whistles. As for $400 being an outrageous price, you’d pay more than that for a decent student guitar, clarinet, etc. For $400 your not getting a student whistle - you’re getting what many consider the finest professional quality whistle available. If you don’t want to pay that price, go get a $5 Generation and have yourself a field day.
If you want to compare prices to orchestral instruments, my Haynes silver flute goes for, and I believe this might be low, $4,000 (that’s why I hide it in the house). The top of the line Bassoon (the name escapes me) as of about 8 years ago, was going for $15,000 dollars and a wait of five years. My very average studio piano cost over $4,300. My Ovation 12 string cost over a grand. Now, granted, these instruments play in all the keys, but they are much more expensive than any Copeland. But, when you buy enough Copelands to cover most keys, you’re looking at a couple thousand dollars. I just wish I had one, though. JP
[ This Message was edited by: JohnPalmer on 2001-12-16 18:35 ]
On 2001-12-15 13:44, Azalin wrote:
To be honnest, I also think that’s a ripoff because whatever good the instrument is, it’s just not worth it when you know how inexpensive it must be to produce.
While I think prices are high, I’m not sure they’re artificially high. To address the “inexpensive to produce” bit in particular, consider pharmaceuticals. It costs a penny to produce every pill, but they sell them for $5, right? But it doesn’t cost a penny for every pill. It costs a penny for every one except the first one, and the first one cost millions of dollars.
Same sort of thing goes on in craft instrumentmaking. It might be $100 of materials and $100 of labour going into that whistle – but you’re also paying for twenty years of learning how to make whistles, and ten years of development of that design, and being able to tell people you play a Copeland, and knowing you’ll like the whistle you’re mailed a year later, and so on.
Not that it’s justified, necessarily, but there are a lot more elements involved in price settng than cost of materials and wage labour.
(Copeland’s essentially in a position where he’s a price-setter and his customers are
price-takers anyhow, so it’s not surprising that he’d take advantage of it. If we
were price-setters, we’d take advantage of it too.)
-Rich
[ This Message was edited by: rich on 2001-12-15 23:52 ]
On 2001-12-15 20:46, dakotamouse wrote:
If they were quick and easy to make they’d be cranking them out by the hundreds a week.
Apologies for boring everyone with economics, but I couldn’t let that one go by. If they were quick and easy to produce, he’d be cranking out the number at which the product of the market price and capacity is highest, which isn’t necessarily his maximum capacity.
I second DM’s apt description of
Copeland whistles as jewelry. Michael
Copeland was a jeweler, in fact, as
was I once. The fipple plug is set in
the whistle head like a stone in a
bezel–the whistles actually are
jewelry. Also MC apprenticed making
organ pipes. I believe
that’s where the raised window
comes from. (A whistle is a sort
of organ pipe that can change tones.)
So each Copeland whistle
is a combination of an organ pipe
with a piece of jewelry.
There are some great whistles out there,
obviously, and also some very different
strategies for designing them–and
my personal opinion is that Copeland
whistles are the best in the world.
People who know these whistles and
who disagree with me will probably
still understand why I say this.
It is also true that a Copeland whistle
is worth considerably more on the day you receive it than you payed for it, and that it
appreciates in value.
Sure, a top quality keyless woodenflute with a tuning slide can be made in less than a day…Ha Ha Ha! I’m sure Chris Wilkes, Hammy, and Patrick Olwell would appreciate your humour. Especially Chris with his 6 year waiting list. Yeah, yeah, we know: He and the others are a bunch of slackers; if they’d just work a few more hours everyday, they too would be able to complete an entire flute in less than a day, rather than taking the better part of a week.
[/quote]
What I said was entirely based on work I have seen done by a friend of mine who happens to be the worlds top uilleann pipemaker, flute in a day, not a bother. He is a very skilled maker(with a now 13 year waiting list for the pipes) t and I have seen him do this more than once. The B flat flute played by Ronan Browne took about that much time. I have other pipemakers seen in their workshop, having the apprentice turn out a batch of plain flutes to butter the bread. Which doesn’t go to say that a maker doesn’t want to hang on to the flute and play it over a couple of days and work on the intonation, but as said: a straightforward flute job CAN be done in a day.
When talking keyed flute it becomes a horse of a totally different colour.
And yes I like to provoke a bit, but in general I try very much not tot throw complete bull at you.
PS please note I didn’t say anything about the quality of the whistles in question, I did say he didn’t underquote the price of his labour. But there other things at work too, a bit beyond the scope of a forum like this maybe, I know that well.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-16 05:27 ]
Labor is definitely where the cost of a handmade whistle goes up. I am making wooden whistles, and the cost of even the most exotic woods is very minor compared to the cost of the MANY hours of hand work required to produce such a whistle, even if I “pay” myself at minimum wages. I do this because I love doing it, and a coupla extra dollars never hurts. For a pro, making instruments for a living, making a profit is important.
I had a Copeland D which I eventually sold to raise money for other instruments. This was simply a matter of personal choice-- I had other whistles whose sound I preferred. The quality of the workmanship was impeccable, and well worth every dollar I spent on the instrument.
Erik