Playing the silver flute and recorder, I have always started the note with a “T” sound (tonguing the note). However, I understand that in traditional Irish music flute players do not use this technique. My question has to do with how notes are “supposed” to be separated in traditional Irish playing? Perhaps there are several ways.
Seamus Egan in his Mad for Trad tutorial for Irish flute suggests separating notes by a method called glottal stopping, which he defines as making a guttural “K” sound at the back of the throat. Using this method of separating notes, the stream of air is pulsed by opening and closing the throat with an explosive consonant such as “K”.
One the other hand, Mickie Zekley in his Lark in the Morning Instructional Video “How to Play the Flute in the Traditional Irish Style” recommends keeping the throat open and separating the notes by diaphragmatic pulsing. This is exactly how we separate notes when we whistle (no tin whistle – using just our lips), and it is quite easy to make a rapid series of whistle notes using the diaphragm to pulse the stream of air. However, since air is compressible, the longer air stream in the diaphragmatic pulsing technique would cause some delay, it seems to me.
I am curious as to whether either of these methods is a preferred technique for Irish traditional flute playing? I’m guessing that there are regional variations throughout the counties in Ireland.
Way to go, Doug! Another topic that might get a bajillion heated responses!
My answer to you is that diaphragmatic pulses, a K, or a glottal stop would all be better choices than tounging (as you suggest!). Remember that unlike Böhm flute or recorder, on the IrTrad flute, not every note need be articulated with a pulse or a stop. You can also use finger articulations as well . . .
Any of these techniques can be done with agility; I don’t think you’d have to worry about a diaphragmatic pulse taking too long. I’m a pulser myself.
and those finger articulations to separate notes, are called “cuts”, and are ornamentations which can be used for other things also…hence their name.
the cuts come from the pipers who use cuts to separate notes as for them there is no other way and the whistlers etc took over the habit…
so on flute you have a few different ways for separating notes
Doug mentioned that glottal stopping may be like using a “K” sound. So, is this similar to the “Ka” or “Ga” in double tonguing (Ta Ka)? I think Grey Larsen’s book says it’s like a cough.
I’ve been trying to do away with my classically-trained tonguing when playing Irish music. I’ve been using cuts, taps, etc. to articulate the notes. But I haven’t figured out glottal stops. I’ve done searches here on C&F and everyone just ends up arguing about the virtues of glottals versus tonguing. I don’t want to go there.
So, could a player with plenty of experience describe how to do a glottal stop?
First of all most of the Irish flute players I know use some tutting though the modern style is very legato like pipes.
Cuts (very short grace notes above the melody notes) and Tips or Taps (the same but the grace note is bellow the melody notes) are used to separate 2 notes of the same pitch on the pipes, Whistles and flute.
Which note you Cut or tip with is less important than the speed and clarity of the effect.
These Cuts and tips are combined in larger patterns to give the music its rhythmic drive.
I know some very good Irish style Boehm players and if your interested I’ll compile a chart of Boehm ornamentation patterns and post it here.
Only a little experience here, sorry. A glottal stop is done by closing off the throat using the root of the tongue. It doesn’t feel like the tongue, though, unless you really think about it. You can practice it by letting air out and repeatedly closing off the airflow this way.
Cuts, taps, diaphragmatic pulsing, glottal stops, tonguing: I use 'em all, sooner or later. I try to keep the tonguing at a minimum. Just doesn’t sound right for trad to me, epecially when flute is the solo voice.
Not a terribly experienced player, but a linguist, so I think I can explain. As a native speaker of english, say the words “re-emergence, de-engineering, pre-existence” or any other word (nonsense or not) aloud, where one syllable ends with the same vowel the next one starts with. What you do within your throat to separate these vowels (exaggerate a bit if necessary) is a glottal stop, done by a complete, but very short closure of the space between the vocal chords, without letting them vibrate.
It looks like Nanohedron partially answered this already, but being a neophyte I’ll go ahead and ask what appears to me to be the other half of Doug’s question (although he probably knows the answer, whereas I don’t): is it the sharpness of the “tuh” sound you get with tonguing that makes it less desirable than glottal stopping?
You’ve all given some great tips on the “how,” but my ignorance extends into “why?” as well. Why glottal or diaphram stopping instead of tonguing? Is it a case of “this is the way it’s always been done,” or is this a major factor in being able to play Irish traditional music correctly? (Not having my flute with me at the moment, I can’t reach for it and try for myself right now.)
Most important of all, if I slip up and tongue a note instead of using a glottal stop, will the “real” musicans in the room banish me or laugh me out of the county?
What little real musical training I have comes from playing clarinet far too long ago in the school band, and tonguing was de rigueur there. If I have to change my old habits (rarely an easy thing!), it always helps to understand why.
Personally, I can’t hear much if any difference between glottals and tongues. Plus, I don’t think it’s nearly as verboten in Irish music as a lot of people think. I was reading an interview on Brad Hurley’s site (I think it was Gary Shannon) in which tonguing was mentioned in a positive light. There’s also one cut on WFO I (The choice wife, can’t remember who plays it) in which there’s some spectacular tonguing.
That said, I think the real danger in tonguing for the ITM beginner, and importing it from classical training, is that it will take the place of finger articulation. I’m now working on playing totally legato because I’m using glottals in places where cuts and taps will work (four of a note in a row, two dotted quarters in a row, etc, which can be played as a roll or cran, then another cut or tap). My teacher wants me to learn how to play with no airflow interruption, not because it’s necessarily best, but so that I am able to play that way when necessary and I don’t use stops because I don’t have other options because of my skill level.
Please take all this with a grain of salt – I’m just beginning to feel that I’m not a newb to the flute, and I certainly don’t have the knowledge base that some on the list have.
Noel Rice, of Baal Tinne. Actually, I don’t believe Noel is an advocate of tonguing, and I don’t hear any real indication of it in the recording. All doable using other techniques. I’m not saying I could, but Noel’s been playing Irish music on the Boehm flute for 30+ years.
Actually, since Doug’s probably got a North American accent, he wouldn’t use a glottal stop in any of those cases; we tend to use glides between the doubled vowels you describe. I don’t know that most Brits would use glottal stops in re-emergence, de-engineering, or pre-existence either.
But she’s on to something, it’s just harder to find an example for you . . . hmm. Cockney accent “butter” has a glottal stop in place of the “tt.”
It’s actually not all that easy to come up with glottal stops in North American English dialects, since we tend to use it for emphasis rather than as a rule when separating vowels that cross syntactic boundaries. We say theeyapple or theeyoven for “the apple” or “the oven,” and “thuhtree” and “thuhbaker” for “the tree” and “the baker.”
Hmm. Oh, maybe this: imagine yourself in a cafeteria, and you want the attendant to give you the apple you’re pointing to, rather than the orange he’s holding. With lots of emotion, and enunciate as best you can, “THE APPLE!” If you really stress the first syllable of “APPLE” when you say it, you probably throw in a glottal stop.
It might be the way you’d say “output” if you weren’t trying to emphasize it. Very likely the first T is a glottal stop, and possibly the second T. We tend replace all final Ts with glottal stops unless we’re enunciating clearly. Oh, it’s the consonant-like sound in the American pronunciations of “uh-oh” and “uh-uh.”
Thank you very much for your answer. Yes, I can plead guilty to using tonguing instead of focusing on practicing fingered ornamentation. I could benefit from some of that same practice your teacher gave you.
I do also practice a sort of glottal “purring”(?), basically the same thing as rolling your R’s when speaking Spanish. So far I’ve found that one more useful with the Native American flute, though.
(Aside: If you do that same RRRRR-rolling sound and whistle with your mouth in just the right position – sans flute – it makes a wonderful imitation of a a cricket that will have people looking around their chairs for the little critters.)
Personally, when I’m listening to other people play I can’t yet tell if they’re tonguing or using a glottal or diaphragm stop. (The fingered ornamentation stands out much more to me.) Maybe in another 10 years my ear will be better attuned…?
I’m a longtime Boehm player, and find myself doing a good bit of struggling with the Irish ornamentation. I noticed John S offered to compile a few Boehm-player-equivalent ornaments. I think it might be helpful to me – how about it John S? By the way, even on the Boehm flute, I find myself using the illegal " doodle-doo" tongueing at times. Anybody ever use that?
Heck yeah, Danl – I figure as long as I make it sound like “google oogle oogh” instead of “doodle doodle oo” it’s perfectly legal.
No, seriously. I’m willing to bet my Boehm that’s “dirtified” double and triple tonguing I hear every now and then, esp. from the players in the really “cool” bands … I think sometimes it’s not only unavoidable, it’s actually a nice variation. Used appropriately and sparingly, of COURSE…
Thanks everyone for your comments. Here are some exercises that you might try to experience the different ways that notes can be separated on the flute. The first is tonguing the note. Play a series of flute tones by saying: ta-ta-ta-ta. You will see that the notes comes very quickly, mainly because the stoppage of the air by the tongue is very close to the embouchure, and there is no delay.
Glottal stops are very common in speech. We use them every day without thinking about it. If you say the word “luck”, there is a glottal stop immediately before the final k consonant. When you say the word “luck”, at the glottal stop you will feel the pressure increasing in the windpipe and suddenly being released for the explosive puff of air, which is the k sound. I agree, that this is very much like a cough, where we build up pressure and then release it suddenly. Continuing our exercise, now play a series of flute tones, this time saying: ca-ca-ca-ca. Glottal stops are not as sudden as tonguing because the stream of air is stopped and released further away from the embouchure. Personally, I find it more difficult to do a rapid series of glottal stops than either of the other two methods.
Other than using finger articulations, which I am not discussing here, the other way to separate flute notes is by pulsing the diaphragm. Using this technique the throat is open, and there is no stop at all. The air is merely pulsed by the diaphragm. So, because the diaphragm is further away from the embouchure than either the lips (tonguing) or the throat (glottal stops), the pulse must travel the full length of the windpipe, which causes some delay in the attack of the note. And finally, continuing the exercise, play a series of flute tones saying: ha-ha-ha-ha. That is diaphragmatic pulsing. You can do it quite rapidly, but the attack of the notes sounds different than either of the notes formed by stopping the air at the throat or tongue.
To interject my own personal opinion, I like the sound of the pulsed notes the best.
Doug
I’m not sure if I agree with your description of glottal stops. Pronouncing the letter k (as in luck) requires moving the back of your tongue (as well as the glottis), while with glottal stops there is no tongue movement whatsoever and they are formed by a combination of the glottis and a diagphramatic pulse. Having said that I’m not sure if even this explanation is really helpful to a student and I have found that the best way forward is to get students to recognise the sound of a glottal stop in a good players playing and try to emulate it. It takes time sure but the most significant element in the learning process is actually recognising what sound effect it is you want to produce.
Beir Bua
Conal O Grada
Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop I finally have a good example for english speakers: the thing that separates the “uh” from the “oh” in “uh-oh” is a glottal stop. (Please, sturob, don’t tell me they are slurring that one as well ).
Most important, though: a glottal stop is not a ‘k’ sound. If you use syllables like “ca-ca-ca” on the flute, you are still tongueing, just with a different part of the tongue. Which doesn’t include any judgment on whether it is right, wrong, acceptable, cool, despicable etc., just the fact that it is a form of tongueing.
Am I getting it right?