I did a search (not a super thorough one, but I did try) on this forum to see if anyone had addressed hitting the high and low notes in tunes such as Drowsy Maggie and Gravel Walks. I am having trouble getting the low note just after blowing the high note in each of these tunes, and wondered what the masters here would be willing to tell me about how they approach those songs. They are definitely highlight songs in the sessions in my town, and I’d really like to master them.
I’ve been learning the tunes on my Oz whistle in D made by Mitch Smith, though I’ve also tried on my other brass Generation and Dixon Trad (both in D), and can’t seem to get the low note to work. It doesn’t want to go into the lower register as quickly as I’d like. A friend who loves playing recorders lent me hers to try, and it worked, but I don’t want to play recorders… I want to play my whistle. Obviously a whole lot of other whistle players have figured this out, so here I am. Thank you in advance for your advice!
I assume you are talking about the A,G , F# sequence in the second part of the tune.
I’m by no means a master, but this is one of the tunes that I play better than most other tunes (except the final part with the c g thing and so on, which I am still trying to improve), so I think I can help.
First off, I’ll say that this part is easier on some whistles than others.
Basically, just blow like you’d normally do to play A, G, F# in the first octave. Then determine how much force you need to use with your tongue to shift these notes up 1 octave. I use tonguing there, anyway.
When you go over the high octave notes, be blowing with the normal pressure you’d use for the 1st octave, but then tongue each of those high notes so it shifts up one octave then drops back down to the first octave . Just a quick little burst of the pressure needed to shift up. Basically, the regular blowing pressure is the default, then just tongue to get it to bounce up briefly for those notes, then let it fall down to the first octave after that.
It’s how I do it, anyway. Maybe others will have better advice. That part took some practice for me, too.
Edit, I’m talking about gravel walks, by the way. I’m not aware of any sequences like this in drowsy maggie.
Practice them slowly and watch your breath carefully. That should do it, in time.
It would be advisable though to maybe learn a bunch of tunes that you will be able to manage, possibly ones that are more suited to the whistle, just to get more time and experience with playing your whistles.
I’ve been working on these tunes too. I try to articulate the notes mentioned by lightly tonguing the notes. Using something like “dee-doo” to make all of the notes speak. I don’t know if this would be considered proper technique but it seems to work pretty well. All of the notes come out clear. And at the risk of opening a can of worms, a thumbhole makes the key of C section at the end of Gravel Walk a piece of cake.
I would agree with that; tonguing is key here and really helps! Over the years I’ve heard many people say do not tongue in ITM, but after listening actively to many great players and talking to some of them, it became clear to me that tonguing’s actually common and very much recommended in certain settings; particularly in the ‘rocking-back-and-forth structure’ that’s found in great a many wonderful fiddle reels (very easily executable on the fiddle, but really rather demanding to do on the whistle).
I would agree with that; tonguing is key here and really helps!
while tonguing may help I strongly feel that it should not be key - which is to say I disagree.
It should be possible to play these leaps, up and down, legato, with no tongue to aid the transition. This requires breath control and knowledge (at a non thinking level) of the whistle - AND a whistle that will do it. (I own an otherwise quite fine hi-D whistle that refuses to go from a 1st octave B to a 2nd octave G without a little help of the tongue - quite frustrating and prone to producing nasty sounds if one forgets to tongue this transition, hence I rarely play this whistle)
Mr G is right on the money on how to learn this
Tonguing, I think, should merely add to your playing and not be required to get from one note to the other - if required it limits your expressive possibilities on an instrument that already challenges you with its limitations.
I am not saying that you do not want to tongue these notes - just that if you can only do these jumps with the addition of the tonguing you are limiting your possibilities.
This is similar to tonguing cuts or taps - you may want to do it but should be able to do them without as well. And learning them with the tongue can make you lazy and unable to do them without its aid.
It should be possible to play these leaps, up and down, legato, with no tongue to aid the transition.
So, have you played either of the two tunes I just asked about at tempo? Just saying, if you play at the expected tempo I frankly cannot see using just breath to get from note to note. They are NOT played at legato, but at high-flying speed.
These are two tunes that I assume many whistle players know, as they are rather common.
I don’t think his point is that you should never tongue, or not tongue there. I think his point is that you should learn without tonguing first, that way it becomes an option, rather than a requirement. In retrospect, I agree with him. I learned without tonguing first, so it didn’t really occur to me that learning something with tonguing might become a bad habit if you must rely on it always in such situations.
For me that passage comes out a bit crisper if I tongue in that part, however, it is certainly possible to play it up to a quicker tempo and do it without tonguing, as I just tried it.
As with any tune, that tune can be played at a variety of tempos. There is no set tempo for every tune, and they definitely aren’t both meant for high-flying speed at all times. Learning to play tunes quickly from the start is a good way to pick up some bad habits, and also fly past your mistakes and not realise why the playing isn’t coming out cleanly or nicely. I recommend gradually increasing your tempo after you get it right at a slower speed. Disect each little part and perfect it as much as possible at a slow speed, then speed up, if you see fit.
It might seem impossible to do it with only breath right now for you, but if you do it with breath slowly, then gradually increase speed, you’ll find it really is possible. I’ve found a lot of seemingly-impossible (to me) things were eventually achievable after getting it at super slow speed before playing at a normal or quicker pace.
They are common tunes but I pretty much get away with never playing either of them because they are so common sometimes people avoid playing them at all.
There are so many tunes in the world it is sometimes worth leaving some for later.
I know this doesn’t answer your question but the truth is that these well known tunes are often played at break neck speed and you’ll probably be unable to keep up for quite some time. Why not work on something else that can be kept to your pace at this time?
after listening actively to many great players and talking to some of them, it became clear to me that tonguing’s actually common and very much recommended in certain settings
Maybe consider the possibility you’re actually hearing glottal stopping. I know for a fact some of the players who are sometimes trotted out here as prime examples of tonguing notes never use the tongue at all but use glottal stops instead.
But whatever way you want to go stylistically, I really think simple practice and learning to control the instrument is key here. And not play like there’s a finish line to be made, give yourself and the music some breathing space and time to get all the bits in and the rhythm right. Precision, lift and rhythm and phrasing the tune properly are all far more important than speed, especially when practicing.
So, have you played either of the two tunes I just asked about at tempo? Just saying, if you play at the expected tempo I frankly cannot see using just breath to get from note to note. They are NOT played at legato, but at high-flying speed.
I am not sure why legato playing and playing at speed would be mutually exclusive. Which way you approach it is a stylistic choice more than anything else.
I don’t know what ‘the expected’ tempo is really or what that even means but if you can’t do it properly when playing slowly, you’ll never be able to do it fast.
Another good exercise would probably be to try play each tune in the key of the other, you may even find they’re actually related.
Kristen - I’m wondering if you’re confusing legato with glissando…? Legato just means that there’s no interruption between the notes (“slurring”). For these greater jumps across the registers you need to accelerate your air flow very abruptly to get a clean transition; tonguing and glottal stops support this of course, but then you’ve got that little break in the flow. As Mr. Gumby, highwood and Syrchronique said, try it with mere breath control first!
And as for easy tunes to practise these intervals, I’d suggest to have a go on Dinky Dorian’s reel…
This ancient discussion of the subject may be of interest.
You must have a memory like an elephant.
Anyhow, please note that for reasons unknown to anyone the database has thought it appropriate to change the poster on all posts I made under a former username to ‘Cayden’. Who, we must acknowledge here, has nothing whatsoever to do with any of these.
Anyhow, please note that for reasons unknown to anyone the database has thought it appropriate to change the poster on all posts I made under a former username to ‘Cayden’. Who, we must acknowledge here, has nothing whatsoever to do with any of these.
Huh… I was wondering how he developed such an early intimate knowledge of Willy Clancy’s style. I should have realized it caydn’t possibly have been him.
I actually noticed it some months ago when I read an old thread and thought Cayden made an awful lot of sense, so much so I could have said it myself. Then there was a yes but..-no but.. moment and I realised what had happened.
I notified both Cayden and the Mods but nobody seemed worried much about it at all.
Seems to me that tonguing might help a leap from low register to high register, but be less benefit for a leap down from high register to low.
I play Dona Nobis Pacem (No, I realize that’s not ITM), which drops an octave from d to D in a couple of places. Adding a cut, with B1 or B2, between the two notes makes for a clean transition. Without a cut, it takes impeccable breath control and synchronization to pull it off.
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I should have realized it caydn’t possibly have been him. 