MT said he’d ‘look into it’. But it doesn’t matter a lot, it’s just a bit strange when I stumble into an old post.
I played those tunes for many years on the flute with no tonguing at all, and now that I’ve given up the flute for the whistle I likewise have no trouble playing the phrases you’re referring to (the ‘rocking’ phrases) without the use of tonguing. So, anyone saying that you must tongue these phrases to play them cleanly is simply not correct.
What is required is good breath control and clean fingering.
Drowsy Maggie shouldn’t give much trouble, unless your whistle has a weak Low E.
The Gravel Walk is a bit more tricky, the part that goes high A > low A, high G > low A, high F# > low A. In my opinion it’s simply a matter of practice.
Try exercise like doing octaves
Bottom D, middle D (closed) - alternate between the two repeatedly without tonguing, at first slowly then increasing speed.
low E, high E -ditto
and on up until
low B, high B -ditto (which can be challenging)
Also do the exercise where you alternate each note from low E to high B with Bottom D, all with no tonguing whatsoever.
D E D F# D G D A D B D c D d D e D f# D g D a D b
Start slowly and eventually build up speed.
To put it another way, you should be able to fluently go from any note to any note (in the traditional D > b range) at high speed without tonguing.
BTW in The Gravel Walk, Matt Molloy doesn’t play octave A’s, but rather plays two “short rolls” on A. Sounds great!
Played around with the drowsy one for a bit. Tried to scrape some of the rust off it while trying not to get lost in some dark corner of the tune.
Which is in a way showing me up as being as rusty as anything but also making a point about taking things easy, playing through the tune while exploring different angles rather than going through it at 90 MPH and rolling it off as memorised.
Nice rendition, Mr. Gumby! The variations kept me interested through three repeats of a tune I’ve heard too many times already.
Hadn’t played it for donkey’s years, just messing about a bit on a misty afternoon.
Here’s Matt Molloy’s Gravel Walk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RPRVI0pWFg
It’s nice because in the first two times through the tune he stays in the low octave in the 2nd part so you can clearly hear that he’s playing two “short rolls” on A back-to-back.
Molloy often does that, keeping what would normally be a high part, or a part that leaps between the octaves, down in the low range for a time or two.
He comes up with a method of fingering, a version, which works fine when kept in the low octave, then at will can bump up any of the bits to the 2nd octave. In much of what sounds like variation he’s actually fingering the same, just using breath control to vary which octaves the different bits are heard in.
I’m going to say what is probably a ridiculous thing to say: I’ve always appreciated Matt Molloy’s playing, but I’d say it’s only in the last year or so that I’ve really started to understand quite how brilliant the man is. Amazing stuff.
Matt does precisely the same thing in Jenny’s Chickens, but one note higher.
Where on the fiddle etc one part goes
B2 bB aB gB
that is, a quarternote low B (or its equivalent) followed by b, a, and g in the 2nd octave alternating with a low B “pedal”
instead, Matt plays
BB bb aB gB
a short roll on low B, a short roll on high b, followed by high a and g alternating with a low B “pedal”.
Here he is! The first time through that last part you can clearly see him doing two short rolls on B in a row
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWo0GyyYE5M
Taking this phrase up one note gives us his approach to the 2nd part of The Gravel Walk. Instead of
A2 aA gA f#A
he plays
AA aa gA f#A
that is, a short roll on low A, a short roll on high a, the g and f# in the 2nd octave with a low A ‘pedal’.
The great advantage of having a “digital” solution to such a phrase (rather than a tonguing or breath-control solution) is that, at will, he can keep the phrase in the low octave for a cool-sounding variation without having to change what his fingers are doing. He can also keep the whole thing in the 2nd octave, or move different bits back and forth between the octaves, all without changing his fingering.
are you mixing the terms legato and largo?
Legato means “smooth” and refers to articulation, in the family of terms such as detache and staccato. Phrases played legato can be any tempo whatever.
Largo means "slow and broad"and refers to tempo, in the family of terms such as adagio and allegro. Pieces in largo can be played in any articulation whatever.
I found that tonguing helped greatly with learning jumps to the second octave… at which time I then learned to do it without the tonguing.
But wait… tonguing is out?? Hell, I bothered to LEARN tonguing in the first place because I’d read (probably either here or something linked from here, but it’s been a long time, so who knows) that it is the only way to articulate a note with the mouth.
Will someone please explain what is meant by the “glottal stop” method? Is it at all similar to the “stopping the breath” method that I had (as aforementioned) read was something only beginners did as it was WRONG WRONG I TELL YOU WRONG and was a method to be un-learned as soon as possible (to my chagrin, I might add, as it was the way I’d been articulating since my days of teaching myself a bit of recorder when my age was still in the single digits)?
Confusion is setting in…
Katharine, tonguing is not out.
It’s a very useful tool as is a glottal stop - a wee gap in air like an uh sound or a silent cough, it can vary from very subtle to exaggerated so you actually hear the uh. Saying not to do something that others do successfully in unhelpful when it comes to the whistle. Tonguing is a stylistic choice, it’s neither right nor wrong but it would be fair to say most whistle players use it relatively extensively.
Will someone please explain what is meant by the “glottal stop” method? Is it at all similar to the “stopping the breath” method that I had (as aforementioned)
edit:
I did not go back to read your “stopping the breath” method - what follows might answer your question!
end edit.
It is possible to control the air going into a wind instrument in your throat/vocal tract.
Your glottis is in your throat. A “glottal stop” is using your glottis to stop the flow of air - The lungs/diaphragm can still be providing ‘breath support’ (that is air pressure) but no air flows if the glottis is closed.
I’m not really sure exactly how much is known about exactly what is going on and even if the technical details were known it would probably not help a person to learn how to play.
I did a quick Google search and came up with:
Glottic configuration in wind instrument players
by Claudia Alessandra Eckley http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-72992006000100008&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
We concluded that the glottis has active participation in wind instruments sound production and that glottic configuration alterations may interfere in the final musical sound. This knowledge suggests the need to include
I think in general it is considered good practice to start and stop the wind into a wind instrument with either the tongue or the throat (presumably this means the glottis but I have not studied this enough to say the glottis is the only part of the vocal tract that wind players use to control the breath.
It is BAD* to stop the breath by stopping blowing - by which I mean stopping pushing the air with your diaphragm and lungs
- I’m sure there are some styles of playing or instruments where this is considered good!!!
Going back to the original question - how to get all the notes to sound playing leaps, especially going down…
The suggestion was made that tonguing would help - which I disagreed with.
Why:
In order for the notes on a whistle to speak and hopefully be close to in tune the speed of the air (or pressure if you prefer) needs to just right and different for every note
So to play quick large leaps the players breath must make quick relatively large and fairly precise changes. The tongue does not play a part in this, and so is not needed - except in the case of whistles which do not want to make certain leaps, in this case sometimes stopping the air flow (say by tonguing) can help.
Personally I often find that passages such as are being talked about do not need the extra emphasis/pop that the tongue adds.
I think the reason some say tonguing helps is that often they are lumping in other stuff with the actual control of the air stream with the tongue. This is quite reasonable and even a valuable way to think about it - for example we can tongue with te, ta, to, tuh, de, da, etc. But it is also useful to separate out the action of the tongue and the rest of the vocal tract - for instance te and de have exactly the same tongue motion the difference being there is a vocalization at the same time the tongue touches the front top of the mouth.
So work on playing the tune slowly (or bits of it) and work on clean, fast transitions without tonguing (which can hide glitches in the transition at low speed but at high speed things just won’t work).
You could also try the tried and true practice method of changing the rhythm - playing dotted eighth sixteenth instead of even eighths and then the other way around sixteenth dotted eighth. This method gives you more time to get things correct and also gives practice at the short length notes at the same time.
The trick with tonguing on a wind instrument is not interrupting the air flow too much.
You want to “play on the stream” as some people have called it.
On the Irish flute, I and many traditional players never tongue. Everything is played on the stream, on the flow. “Breath pushes” (as traditional fluteplayers have called them) done with the diaphragm are used to give rhythm to the playing, and can be used to make these octave passages pop out without any interruption of the airflow.
Of course that’s not been the norm with traditional Irish whistleplayers! Who tongue quite a bit. Important though to keep the “flow” or the “stream” and not let the playing begin to sound staccato, like a Fife & Drum fifer.
You can practice smooth tonguing by playing a number of high A’s and high B’s in a row, all articulated with tonguing, but strive to make the separation as gentle as possible.
Listen to the playing of Pete Fountain, the great New Orleans jazz clarinetist. He’s really really good at this, at articulating a series of notes of the same pitch while keeping the “flow”.
My teacher and his teacher and ?? called this “playing on the wind” and “tonguing on the wind”.
The trick to a ‘smooth tongued phrase’ is mostly the wind - tapering each note before starting the next with a gentle tongue. This is a simplistic explanation - it really needs the hands and voice as well as more words to explain. I think this is easier to execute on oboe, which is the instrument I learned it on, than whistle.
edit: I should add that the tapering is tricky on the whistle since a reduction in volume tends to be accompanied by a flattening of pitch which if anything is the opposite of what you want to happen - quieter and a little brighter is what you need
Wow… I go away for a few days and look how chatty you get! 
Thank you for all the input so far… yes, I used the wrong word - legato - when I meant slow, or perhaps largo? Allegro I think means fast, so that’s eventually what I need to get to if I want to play with others in my area. That’s why I’m asking about speed, and these songs in particular, because they get played in sessions. If I want to play in sessions here, I need to learn these tunes. I already know a bunch of songs that no one else plays, which makes it difficult for me to play with others until I get my repertoire up.
To answer a couple of questions:
Final tempo: I was looking through Youtube to find a version of DM that wasn’t lightning fast, so unfortunately I can’t show you how fast I would like to play it.
On practice speed: I always work slow to practice a new piece and work up to tempo over time, for those that maybe assumed I was practicing faster than I should and are practicing bad habits. I know better than to do that, because speed does make up for a badly played tune.
Michael Mullen, a fiddler in my area, said something I think is important to remember - if you are playing for the general population, which I do on occasion, they aren’t going to know that Irish Washerwoman, Drowsy Maggie, or Gravel Walk are old, overplayed tunes in sessions. They will hear something fun and familiar, clap along and enjoy the music, and give a wonderful appreciative applause at the end. So it’s a win-win situation really… the audience connects with you, and these pieces are a little more difficult to play, right? So you as the player get your “workout”, too, so to speak.
As far as the whistle goes, I’ve found that my generation will play the low note on Drowsy Maggie a little more easily than the Oz, and the only way I’m getting the low note with the Oz is if I tongue it, where it kind of “pops” out. When I play slower, yes, the note comes out after a bit on the Oz, but more like a car slowly shifting into gear instead of rapidly.
I am not a big fan of glottal stops so far, but will try them out more often to see where I can use them. And in general, I also don’t use tonguing for all my notes, just where I want a separation or emphasis. I have been noticing more cuts and/or taps being played on Drowsy Maggie (via Youtube today), which I wonder about, and if it would help me some in this matter. But I just can’t get around how quick the low note is, and could I really shove an extra “something” in time enough to make this darn low note work.
Tempo is subjective. You’ll very often hear people say “nice playing but too fast”. Generally they’re wrong and are going by their own taste. If you listen to old recordings for dancing or top contemporary players you’ll find the tempo to be surprisingly brisk if you try to play along with it. Personally I think tunes can be played at the pace you’re in the mood for and I find the speed police pretty pathetic. Over a lifetime you’re likely to play the same tune at many different tempos.
As far as tunes seen as “overplayed” go, it may be true in some locations that the general public are unaware that it’s only standards being played but don’t assume that. Certainly this side of the water there’s plenty places with a pretty clued up audience when it comes to trad. They like the standard tunes too but if you play only the old favourites every week they’re not necessarily going to blindly clap along.
Tounging adds good definition when played well. Though some of what Highwood says makes sense I disagree regarding tounging and think that with quotes like " The tongue does not play a part in this, and so is not needed - except in the case of whistles which do not want to make certain leaps, in this case sometimes stopping the air flow (say by tonguing) can help." he totally contradicts him/herself.
About tempos for Irish reels, traditionally they’ve been around 108-116. You’ll never go wrong staying in that region.
There’s a tendency with some sessions and some Irish stage bands to bump the tempos up far beyond that, to speeds far faster than the dances the Irish traditional music was created to accompany.
My wife listens a lot to a current Irish band, an excellent band with excellent players who play excellent tunes, but their tempos are so fast that to me the tunes all become somewhat tuneless, a pounding rhythmic jumble. All the intricacies and subtleties of the music are steamrolled over. It’s the difference between playing the music for the music’s sake, and playing the music for the musicians’ sake, in my opinion.
Listen to the old Ceilidh bands, and the guys who played in the old Ceilidh bands, to hear the music at appropriate tempos.
There’s a strange thing with Irish bands here in the USA, not bands made up from actual Irish players, but bands made up of Americans who were raised in different music traditions and are late-comers to Irish music: many of them play Irish Washerwoman, and many of them play it in a certain way, starting slow and continuing to speed it up until it’s a nearly unrecognizable garble. They imagine that it’s a “crowdpleaser”, that it impresses people when they play a tune faster than it was intended to be played, indeed faster than the band is capable of playing it.
Well, if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance…