I know that there have been discussions here above tonguing verses slurring. Here’s a tangent to that. Have any of you tried playing a tune with what I would call piper articulation? Pretend that you can’t tongue (you can’t on the pipes) and use cuts, strikes, etc. to articulate and separate notes. I’ve been trying it on Lord Lovat’s Lament. It’s kinda hard, but it makes for an interesting variation on the tune.
~ Thornton
IMO everyone should try this - to improve your ornamentation technique and explore the possibilities for phrasing not using your tongue.
BTW as far as piping goes, if it’s Irish piping you’re talking about, this kind of playing would correspond only to an “open” style of piping. Closed or “tight” fingering technique allows uillean pipers to stop notes and play staccato, producing effects similar to what you get from tonguing.
Thornton,
I AM EDITING THIS MESSAGE BECAUSE OF A THREAT OF LAWSUIT BY STEVIEJ.
As Stevie says (edit - actually, he doesn’t say), the whistle is basically meant (edit - who am I, or StevieJ, or even Mary Bergin or anyone else, to tell you how to play the whistle. Just play it however the heck you want. Is that more helpful?) to be played like one would play the pipes, with cuts, rolls, taps, etc. Many traditional whistle players will argue that tonguing should only be used sparingly, if at all, though some whistle players tongue liberally in addition to their use of ornamentation. Having received my initial tuition from Mike McHale, who argues against tonguing alltogether, I rarely use my tongue for articulation at all.
Chris
[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-02-06 17:53 ]
I’ve been trying to do this more myself. I tend to tongue by default or when I’m not thinking about what I’m doing, or when I’m nervous, etc… Lately I’ve been trying to practice without tonguing at all and I think it’s improving my playing.
For people who’s first wind instrument is the whistle this may not seem like a big deal, but if you’ve played other wind instruments for many years (sax for me), it can be hard to eliminate tonguing and/or apply it as needed rather than by default.
-Brett
On 2002-02-06 17:08, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
As Stevie says, the whistle is basically meant to be played like one would play the pipes, with cuts, rolls, taps, etc.
That is not what I said at all, Chris. If I were Porridge, I’d put Messrs Sue Grabbit and Runne onto you and sue you for damaging my reputation.
I don’t believe Thornton wanted to start a discussion about the merits of tonguing or not tonguing. Did you, Thornton?
But since you have raised the issue, let me say that I think it’s a bit extreme to express opinions about how the whistle is “meant to be played” (meant by whom, one wonders?).
Whoa - hold on folks. No offense meant!
All I was saying is that many Irish traditional whistle players advocate playing the whistle as if playing the pipes, whether it be the staccato closed style or the open legato style. I think practicing playing with minimal use of the tongue can be a useful step towards learning to play in a traditional style. Many musicians, especially those trained in classical music and jazz, have been trained to tongue almost every single note and have a very hard time learning not to do so. Hammy Hamilton told me that to him it’s practically a dead give away that someone is a newcomer to the traditional music if they tongue often on the flute or whistle. Again, I didn’t make up the tradition, nor am I trying to impose any rules… I’m just trying to impart the advice I’ve been given by the wonderful teachers I’ve been so fortunate to study with.
As for Thornton not wanting to start a discussion about the merits of tonguing vs. not tonguing - why did you discuss tonguing in your original post?
Best,
Chris
The more you give the more there is.
[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-02-06 18:02 ]
No offence taken. But please don’t put words into my mouth, especially ones I would never say.
All I was saying is…
It seems you’ve edited your original post, apparently while I was composing my reply to it. As a result, my words may look a little testy. I recall your original post being a good deal less qualified than it is now. (Although I could be wrong.)
Oh dear me. Reviewing the topic just before submitting this I see you have edited BOTH your replies again. It’s difficult to discuss anything when you keep revising what you have to say. I give up.
Stevie,
The only things I added to my original post were the disclaimer and the two notes in parenthesis and denoted as edits. The second post was edited for a spelling mistake.
Chill.
Best,
Chris
Since edits are also now off limits, the following is exactly what I added to my posts:
1st post -
“I AM EDITING THIS MESSAGE BECAUSE OF A THREAT OF LAWSUIT BY STEVIE” ; "(edit - actually, he doesn’t say); “edit - who am I, or StevieJ, or even Mary Bergin or anyone else, to tell you how to play the whistle. Just play it however the heck you want. Is that more helpful?)”
2nd post - “Thorton” changed to “Thornton”
Stevie, I hardly see how that makes my original post significantly less qualified than the edit. I mean, for crying out loud, I specifically and clearly denoted any edits to the original post. My note in caps about the lawsuit was intended as humorous, as I percieved that yours was as well. One way or the other, this is NOT a big deal. I apologize for misquoting you. I’ve added a note to my original post indicating that you actually didn’t say what I claimed you said. What more do you want?
Chris
What more do I want? Nothing.
It’s just that if we are going to conduct a discussion that people can follow without one or both of us appearing daft, nitpicking and insanely hypersensitive (I’m sure it’s both of us by now), I feel it would be far better to add any qualifications to your points in posts that come after the reply that takes issue with whatever you said.
As it is, I’ll take your word that you didn’t substantially alter the first post in your first edit, and that my recollection to the contrary is mistaken. However your second edit just garbles everything.
Why not let your words stand, and then defend them or retract them as you see fit? Otherwise you’re just rewriting history.
However, I’m sure Porridge will be very pleased if he reads this and sees that you’re working on your sense of humour. Way to go, boy!
Alright, peace. I’m done with this.
Sorry we hijacked your thread, Thornton. Maybe someone else would like to reply to the original question now!
I just want to say that the idea of
practicing without tongueing at all
strikes me as really helpful and
interesting–though hard for me to do.
Thanks.
If you’ve finished with the “to edit or not to edit” bickering, can we have that “to tongue or not to tongue” flamewar now, please.
Jens
And I was going to edit the message above (but then thought I better not) to say that I definitely tongue when playing whistle, but yes, doing without tongueing is good for practice once in a while.
In an attempt to drag this off-topic, I hereby give you Tolkien-people this humorous link (excerpts from LOTR, had it been written by other authors):
http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/auth.htm
Cheers,
Jens
Well, I’m pretty new to the whistle (four weeks) and to traditional Irish music (couple years), but I have been playing around with the “no tounguing” idea. I don’t know the correct names for the ornamentation I’ve used, but it sure does sound interesting when you don’t articulate any of the notes with your toungue. I tried it because I was thinking the same thing, i.e. it would sound similar to piping.
Has anyone ever tried playing a tune while playing a lower note in-between the notes of the melody throughout the tune? I kind-of thought it suggests the sound of a drone, in a way.
Speaking of articulation, does anyone double-toungue triplets? I thought that sounded good too.
Later,
Shane
P.S. Would anyone care to name/describe some of the basic ornaments? Of course, if I take the time to look, someone has probably already covered that in a past thread.
[ This Message was edited by: Shane Klein on 2002-02-07 05:05 ]
But…But..I Like using my tongue
Dan
cuts, rolls, and crans are the three
main ornaments. Don’t know whether
slides are ornaments.
I’m finding I make a mess of playing
if I don’t tongue occasionally. Shows how much I depend on it. Sometimes I
half hole the C nat, go down to the
B, back to the C nat, and it’s
just mush without tongueing to
articulate the note changes.
Also in slides, well, I can do them
without tongueing, but they do sound
better when the tongued. It’s possible
to ‘stack up’ ornamentation by
tongueing the first note. Also just
starting a musical phrase in an air–well,
it does seem to help to tongue the
first note.
What do you’all think?
After playing the whistle and not tounging for about a year I decided to take up the flute. A bohem flute to be exact. My teacher nearly took my head off several times for not tounging e-v-e-r-y note. After that I decided I was better off teaching myself. It is intresting how two people can have such different ideas on something like tounging. It is a little harder to do cuts rolls ect… on a bohem flute but it can be done. Once you do it on a flute the whistle is a breeze.
LW
Woowee! I sure did open up a can of worms. It was a lively discussion, though.
BTW, ChrisLaughlin, thanks for correcting the spelling of my name. So many people leave out the ‘n’ in the middle.
~ Thornton