I’m at the stage now where I can play a few tunes and I’m starting to use cuts and rolls a bit. A big question for me is whether to tongue (or throat) the attacks on notes.
The impression I get from some books/players is that they rarely tongue notes at all, and play one continuous slur with cuts or strikes to articulate repeat notes. I can do this, but it lacks accent to my ears.
There is one particular figure I would like some guidance on. It’s the classic ITM reel “pedal” phrase, like the first bar of The Morning Dew parts B and C. Is this kind of phrase (alternating “melody” notes and a B pedal) normally played as one continuous phrase or do fluters normally tongue separate notes anywhere on the first 2 beats?
I’d say not.
As a rule of thumb, use cuts and taps most often. When you don’t use those, use glottal stops. Some pro’s use tounge, but when you’re an amature, it just sounds very amatureish.
Maybe just a bit for the second part. I think I’d mostly use cuts and taps together with puffs of air if you know what I mean. Don’t really know, haven’t played that tune for a while.
If you’re at the stage where you can only play but a few tunes, The Morning Dew is not really a tune you should be playing right now. Not that it’s not a good tune, mind you, just that it’s a fiddler’s tune and not a flute tune. By this I mean that the bits you’re obsessing on here are the bits that fiddle players can really go to town on, but which are not so easy on the flute. Not that they can’t be played well on the flute, mind you, as Matt Molloy does a great job with them in his classic rendition of the tune.
But you (and I, who has been playing close to 15 years now) are a long way from being Matt Molloy. For the likes of us, as we learn to play the flute it’s much better to focus on the traditional flute repertoire (of which there’s so much that I’m actually blanking right now as I attempt to come up with some tune names for you) as we get our chops up, and then as time goes by the fiddly bits in tunes like The Morning Dew will gradually seem to be not so much a big deal. That’s my advice to you.
For what it’s worth, though, what you really need to do to play what you call a “pedal phrase” is to slightly adjust your embouchure and airflow as you transition from the higher notes down to the pedal notes and back up, with maybe a wee bit of a glottal stop thrown in where you need it to keep the rhythmic feel of the phrase correct and the pedal notes sounding well. No tonguing, ever, in this kind of pattern. It’s all quite complicated and not at all easy to pull off consistently, even for the best players. That’s why I think a relative newbie on the flute should be worrying about other things (like tone, phrasing, basic cuts, taps and rolls, etc.) rather than stuff like this. Leave The Morning Dew to the fiddlers for now. They’ll thank you for it!
You would slur those pedal phrases for sure. You might try giving a little push with your diaphragm/breath on the “spike” notes (E and F# in the B part for example) but keep it slurred. As far as tonguing goes, it’s not generally used on the flute. Glottal stops are what you’ll want to use. But use them sparingly in most cases. Generally you’ll articulate more with cuts, taps, rolls, breath pulses (diaphragm) etc. Glottal stops are a good rhythmic device; taking breaths in the right places has a great rhythmic effect as well. Listen to lots of flute players to get a good feel for when and where to use glottal stops and whatnot.
Hope this helps,
I was using glottals only, never tonguing, and then
I took some lessons with Grey L, who told me to
tongue, so now I both tongue and use glottals,
more the former (it’s helpful to mix them up).
Mostly I play a flowing line, using cuts, rolls,
taps, however I certainly use tonguing. I see it
as another device to punctuate or emphasize notes,
it has its place along with everything else–it can also
help begin other ornaments, like cuts.
So I think tonguing is in one’s bag of tricks,
to use sparingly, as everything else is used
sparingly. I don’t think it’s a ‘tonguing OR…’
dichotomy.
Doubtless this is controversial. I do figure that
tonguing/glottals is/are something one can
do on the flute (as opposed to the pipes, say),
it’s a nice effect, it can be useful, so we might
as well use it–but erring on the side of moderation.
When in doubt, don’t, or at least see how things
sound without it.
I think this is a good way to go. I treat tonguing like another ornament, and less sparingly than I use most ornaments. But it’s there, and can be used sometimes.
I am playing Morning Dew because it’s one of the tunes I play on banjo, so I don’t have to do any work to learn the tune. But my question wasn’t really specific to this tune - I just used it as an example. There are dozens of tunes with this same kind of “pedal phrase” - even some simple tunes. My objective was to find out how experienced players normally handle these phrases - am I out of line the way I am doing it (no tongue or throat attacks)?
I am relieved to find that your description pretty much describes what I am doing, so I think I am indeed on the right track.
You should know that sometimes when you ask a question with regards to good flute playing here you will get answers of all sorts, and the funny thing is that a lot of these people who answer you dont know anymore than yourself, i think after playing flute for thirty years i should qualify to tell you that tonguing is a major part of good flute playing
glottal stops are used by some players but i would’nt consider too much of that in good traditional music.
Hmmm … this kind of reminds me of how a Zen master trains monks!
I guess what you are saying is, listen to what people say, evaluate as well as you can, but in the end have the confidence to make your own decision.
PS Johnkerr - something I wanted to add regarding whether a relative beginner should be playing the Morning Dew or not. In fact, it is not a real diificult tune - unless it is played at breakneck speed. I happen to believe it makes a lovely slow reel. Plus, I think if I learn to play it slowly now, I have a better chance of playing it at a faster clip later on if I want to.
It’s one of my favourite tunes of all time anyway - which is always a good incentive to work hard at a tune!
Same with me – I was playing almost entirely legato till I had lessons with Chris Norman. The first thing he pointed out about my playing is that I was doing almost no mouth articulation. So I’ve been listening more to that, and I’ve found Jack Coen and Garry Shannon both do a lot of mouth articulation. JC plays a very sparsely ornamented style, GS a pretty richly ornamented style.
The one thing to be aware of, though, when it comes to mouth articulation, is that when you use a glottal or tongue, it doesn’t only affect the beginning of the next note, it also affects the end of the previous note. I think that makes a huge difference in determining when to use them.
The underlying issue with these pedal phrases is the ability to switch smoothly between notes in the upper and lower octaves. The pedal phrase with its rapid back and forth just magnifies the problem. If you’re doing it right, you should require no glottal or tongue to accomplish the shift from high to low or vice versa. It’s all done with the embouchure.
Obviously, to learn how to do this kind of thing right, repetitive exercises are good. So taking a tune like The Morning Dew which has such patterns and slowing it down to work on them and get them right is a great approach. In fact, that’s the kind of thing I did when learning how to do this and other things related to flute playing when I first began to play. Back in the day when I was a high school clarinet player, I spent a lot of time practicing scales and etudes. I had whole books full of them! Using tunes now for my “scales and etudes” is definitely a lot more fun.
PS to glinjack: After thirty years of playing, I’d think you would realize that making broad generalizations about how traditional musicians play is not the best approach. The fact is that there are good traditional players who tongue, there are good traditional players who glottal stop, there are good traditional players who do both, and there are good traditional players who do neither. There are good traditional players who’d swear they don’t even know what a “glottal stop” is even though they do it all the time! The only safe thing to say about tonguing in Irish trad flute playing is that it’s used in a very different way than in other types of music, e.g. classical. Whether you tongue or not in Irish trad music doesn’t matter. What matters is the sound that comes out. Every player needs to figure out what they need to do to get the sound they’re looking for. If a traditional sound is what they’re looking for, then over time they will figure out what they need to do to produce it - and what they end up doing may be the exact opposite of what the guy/gal next to them is doing to get pretty much the same sound!
I keep hearing this debate. Considering that many flute and whistle players believe in not tounging at all, I am wondering how developed tounging technique is in the flute and whistle world. Just saying you tounge or don’t is a pretty broad statement. There are a hundred shades of tounging. At least in the wind instrument world I came from there was. (brass and woodwind). Are we talking about hard tounging with a space? Soft legato tounging with no space. Ta? Da? La? As a trombone player, you are at a handicap when it comes to slurring and have to learn to make tounging sound like sluring. And no discussion on double and tripple tounging? I hear pros use the technique, but never see a discussion about it.
For the record I try to avoid tounging “most of the time”. Say, 90%.
Certainly puncutally tounging the end of notes can sound amateurish and immature. It’s often a problem with young (and sometimes older) players on other wind instrument. Some intuitively learn to stop the end of notes with others plod along forever tounging notes to an abrupt punctuation like some bizare musical speech impediment. I remember being taught in my second year of playing how notes could be cut off with the breath or throat, and when and where to do it.
If you are playing with a fiddler that is using a very tight puncutated style, bouncing multiple quick notes with space in between, would it not be right to use the double and triple tounging technique?
Sticking strictly to a formal style of not tounging when the instrument is fully capable of using tounging seems a bit one-trick-pony-ish.
(I think that’s how they spell it) Or is it one-trick-pony-esque.
And don’t talk to me about tradition. I eat Lucky charms every morning, wash with Irish Spring, get drunk and fight every night while singing Danny Boy. That’s about as traditional as you can get.
I find a use for tonguing when jumping octaves quickly, eg. Gravel Walks, and thats about it. IMO it’s best to err on the side of not enough rather than too much, especially if coming from a classical woodwind.
I tongue a fair bit with the whistle as i like it - ex trumpet player. I can double and triple tongue but haven’t found much use for it in what i’m playing on the whistle - “yet”.
I’ve just started playing flute and haven’t worked out how to tongue a note cleanly yet, i’m finding it difficult enough keeping notes going without putting my tongue in the way. I’m sure as soon as learn how to tongue notes cleanly on a flute i’ll be doing it.
Trilling sounds nice on whistles and flutes as well.
Personally i think if you can make a piece of music sound nice by using a certain technique, then go ahead and use it. At the end of the day we should all play how we want to play. Music’s much better without silly rules.
I began my love of traditional music by playing military fife (a drummer by birth). The style emphasizes tonguing. I was told, by a very accomplished player, not to use glottal stops on this instrument. In fact, there are some good reasons not to use them on this instrument.
When I purchased my first D Flute, I was told by several accomplished players to avoid tonguing, use glottal stops sparringly and slur most notes. I felt like a novice slurring. I consider myself an accomplished and clean fifer, yet I was obviously using tonguing to cover crossing noises. I wish I could play the wonderful slurring passages and clean cuts and rolls I hear in my head.
What I am trying to say is this: make it a priority to learn new techniques, even if it isn’t “in style”, it will only help your playing in the long run. Play what you like to hear. Chances are others will like it too. Play for the people who listen, not other players. The people who created these traditions were radical in their day. You can’t play for them. Learn from other players, stealing what you like best. It is really important to understand style and tradition when playing an instrument and interpreting music. Don’t let that stop your learning and creating new traditions. (Learn the rules so you can learn the best way to break them).
If anyone gives you a hard time about tonguing, refer them to Brian Finnegan and Sarah Allen and have them listen to some Flook (www.flook.co.uk). Tell me that sounds amateurish.
