Rolling up

Whistle
1

I’ve been trying to expand my listening in the whistle world, and I’ve heard quite a few players do an ornamentation that sounds to me like a roll only they go up to the next note on the scale instead of down which is the only way I’ve learned to do rolls.

First of all, let me explain how I do rolls, which may or may not be the correct way. Let’s say I want to do a roll on the note A. First I play the A, then lift my middle finger, drop it back down, and then tap the G with my ring finger quickly letting it off again to go back to the A. If I wanted to “roll down” to the G, I’d simply cover the G hole again.

I typically do all my rolls the same way, always cutting up one note, and tapping the note below. I’ve seen other ways to do them, that always cut/tap either the G or the B. I assumed this is a style thing, or the way people have been taught.

Yea, yea. I should get a tutor. I’m seriously starting to consider it after having taught myself this instrument over the past two years. I know of a few in my town, so I may start that soon.

Going back to my example, what I want to do is a roll on the A, but go up to the B. I haven’t figured this one out yet. Any pointers?

2

Hm, it sounds like you’re mis-thinking rolls a bit. Yes, a long roll is as you describe, and it takes 3 beats, landing on the rolled note on each of those beats. What you play after that is not part of the roll, it’s the next note. There’s no “rolling up” or “rolling down”. Play ~A3G or ~A3B or whatever next note the melody requires. I’m not sure why you think ~A3B is a special case.

That’s not wrong per se, but … By default, you should try to avoid lifting the finger of the rolled note. Which means, when playing an A roll not lifting the T2 finger (i.e. not cutting up one note), but lifting the T1 finger instead. Or for a G roll not lifting T3, but T1 or T2 instead. Especially for beginners, this gives you a cleaner cut, and avoids the problem of playing a definite pitch and producing a classical turn instead of a roll - which is one of the most common mistakes I hear. The beauty of the B/G cut “rule” is that it automatically enforces not lifting the rolled note finger without having to think about each individual case.

Yes, there’s no absolute rule. Cut any note above, tap any note below, depending on the effect you want. But you’re basically using a secondary technique as your primary technique, and you might think about changing that habit before it’s too late to break.

3

In Grey Larson’s whistle book, the roll is described as a 3 8th note orniment where the first note is played straight, the second is cut and the 3rd is struck, finishing on an 8th. After this 8th note, you can lift a finger to go to the next higher note.

a (cut) a (strke) a b

Or a short roll:

(cut) a (strike) a b

4

Another voice of support for the B/G rule: cut D, E, and F# with your ‘G’ finger (T3), and cut G, A, and B with your ‘B’ finger (T1). (Or use your ‘A’ finger [T2] to cut G.) Like this: http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/cuts.html (My one disagreement: like MTGuru points out, cutting with the lowest finger often isn’t as crisp sounding as cutting with a finger higher up the tube.)
Then apply this method to create measured, rhythmic rolls: http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/rolls1.html

5

I’m having difficulty following Farmer Jones’ descriptions. It would be cool to be able to hear you play your rolls, then it would be clear.

Yes when I do rolls (ordinary long rolls, there are several different styles of rolls besides) it’s three melody notes separated by blips which are so short as to not really be heard as notes, but more as interruptions of the melody note

A’A,A

I suppose it could be written, in other words

A (cut) A (pat) A

I learned initially to use the upper ring finger to cut all the lowerhand notes, that is, an “A” gracenote:

D
xxx xxx
xxo xxx
xxx xxx

E
xxx xxo
xxo xxo
xxx xxo

F#
xxx xoo
xxo xoo
xxx xoo

G
xxx ooo
xxo ooo
xxx ooo

However G especially might be cut with any of the upperhand’s three fingers, for me.

The note A, I might cut with either of the available fingers.

For pats, I usually pat only one finger, though I will often pat two fingers for F# and three for G viz

F#
xxx xoo
xxx xxx
xxx xoo

G
xxx oox
xxx xxx
xxx oox
(I often leave that bottom finger on the whistle for G, A, B, and C)

6

When I get home from work, I’ll try to do a recording to show you guys. Where’s a good place to upload it? dropbox? soundcloud?

I’ll work on using G and B on my rolls, and see if I can’t figure out the timing in getting the sound I want. What I’m looking to do is play more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBLC9-P1dUw

I got the basic melody down, and I’ve put in a bit of my own ornamentation, but I can’t figure out exactly what he’s doing when going up that scale in the first bit.

7

You mean the very first few measures? Oh dear … If you think those are rolls, then you really do need to re-think things a bit.

Here is what he’s playing:

[M:3/4] [K:EDor] E2F2|{F}G2- {B}GF G2|{c}A2- {c}AG A2|{A}B2- {c}BA PG2|E3G B2|

There are no rolls there. Only cuts and upward slides. And the notated PG2 is a “flip” on the G, basically {GB}G2.

You could play rolls on the held notes, like this:

[M:6/8] [K:EDor] E2F2|{F}~G3 F G2| {c}~A3 G A2|{A}~B3 A PG2|E3 G B2|

But that would be something different. And in any case, whether the overall melody is rising or falling has no particular bearing on the ornaments.

Does that help?

8

Here’s a quick clip of me playing these rolls. I did them on my Clark Original C:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vudz5dogx3auupc/rolls%20example.mp3?dl=0

EDIT: my microphone sucks.

MTGuru/pancelticpiper: you guys are both a great help! I’ll look into what you’re talking about, and see if I can make some improvements.

9

And … I’ve just heard it again. Sorry farmerjones, but that’s exactly what you’re doing. Those are not rolls. You’re playing classical turns.

Your cuts and taps are waaaaaay too slow. By, like, one order of magnitude. And your timing is way off. You’re playing 5 separate notes, when you should be playing 3 separated notes.

My suggestion would be to do a complete and immediate rewind on your cuts, taps and rolls, back to the beginning:

  1. Adopt the B/G Cut Rule right now, and stick to it. You’re the perfect candidate.

  2. Go back and carefully re-read Brother Steve’s lessons on cuts, taps and rolls. under Twiddly Bits. Especially the “Dah-blah-blah” explanation of rolls. Don’t rush through the lessons, or you’re less likely to achieve the “Aha!” moment.

  3. Review Ryan Duns’ video lessons on cuts, taps and rolls - Lessons 5, 6 and 7.

Then come back and re-post a clip when you’ve had a chance for the new finger habits to “lock in”, and we’ll let you know. Good luck! :slight_smile:

10

I’ve started off many people over the years on whistle, Irish flute, and pipes, and it’s very common for beginners to have difficulty getting the cuts and pats quick enough.

People coming from classical or Baroque music usually have the most problems, I suppose because they’re so used to playing turns.

For pats, people coming from the Boehm flute have the most problem because they’re used to holding their fingers very low, in gentle contact with the keys (on plateau flutes) or very close to the keys (on French model flutes). This is necessary to avoid key noise.

Well, moving the finger to and from the surface of the instrument from this low ‘guide position’ doesn’t generate the necessary velocity to make the pat quick enough. If you watch the fingers of Irish players you’ll see the patting finger rise high above the surface of the instrument just before the pat (mine rise about and inch and a half) then the pat is done with an extremely quick flicking motion.

A pat only sounds right if 1) the hole is fully sealed and 2) the pat is quick enough.

With cuts there’s no trick that can help other than practice. It takes much practice to get the cuts lightening-quick, so that they’re not heard as a note but as a near-instantaneous blip. Oftentimes beginners try to make their cuts quicker by lifting the finger less; this only results in a muddy-sounding cut. For the cut to sound clearly the cutting finger must rise well clear of the instrument; I just measured my cuts and the fingers come up a bit over a half-inch.

When you separate three notes with cut and pat the three notes are all of their full value; the cut and pat are near-instantaneous and don’t rob time from the three notes. So

G (cut) G (pat) G

should sound more or less the same as

GGG (that is, three Gs separated by tonguing).

11

I just now made this simple video showing how I do cuts, pats, and rolls. I don’t know if it will help at all. Not much to it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfu_fDUyNHs

12

One more approach to learning cuts, taps, and rolls that really helped me (this from Grey Larsen’s book):

Set a metronome to, say, 60 bpm. Hold a note; then, every other beat on the beat, play a tap. Same thing for cuts. Once they’re sounding clean (like blips, not notes), change the tempo.

Then, to put it all together (don’t try to play rolls until your cuts and taps are spot on), set the metronome to 60 (or slower). Hold the note for the first beat, play a cut on the second beat, play a tap on the third beat. Eventually, change the tempo. By playing along with the metronome at various speeds, you’ll develop the ability to play rolls slowly, quickly, and everywhere in between. This is essential, because rolls need to be played at the tempo of the tune or they sound out of sync.

The metronome method and the dahblahblah method together did the trick for me. Just don’t rush the process: again, don’t tackle rolls until cuts and taps are sounding great on their own.

13

Yes practicing along with a metronome is great. It builds control and fluency. With rolls, the metronome forces you to play with precision, and not have the roll degenerate into classical turn, or into a blob of sloppiness.

14

I think I have a new favorite musical term! :laughing:

15

Glad you like it!

How about “seething vortex of humanity”? That’s what my workplace has been like for the last two weeks.

16

Having known Brother Steve in the flesh (albeit not as a whistle teacher) every time I go and look at his whistle pages I marvel at the amount of wisdom packed into very few pages, and delivered for free. It’s the best deal you’re gonna find when learning the whistle or ITM.

Mind you, I’m not certain how clear it would be if I didn’t already get it. Now that I do it’s pellucid and absolutely correct. From outside, however, it might feel like one of those zen koans where the master hits the acolyte with a wet fish. But keep at it. Brother Steve has the most succinct set of clues I know of, and when you get it, it’ll all make sense. Keep playing, and keep trying to make sense of what he says. And keep playing. That’s the important part. All else will follow if you’re also listening to authentic ITM. It’s like anything else: the more you hear, the more you will hear in what you hear, particularly if you listen actively and listen for what you’re you’re learning in lessons in the music you’re hearing. It’ll take some time to stop sounding all alike. When that begins to happen, pat yourself on the back: you’re on your way! Now make your whistle (flute, fiddle…) sound like that!