I’ve been playing, not seriously, for a few years, and am now to the point where I can hit all the notes in my favorite pieces and in a way play along with stuff on disc. So I’m starting to actually practice the standard ornaments and listening to how they sound when the pros play them. When, say, Liam O’Flynn plays a roll, it pretty much sounds like a note with a couple of stops in it. You have to listen really closely to hear that the stops are actually different notes.
How do y’all learn/practice this?
I’ve been actually doing exercises (very uncharacteristic) to learn this. I play a scale with taps in it, then one with cuts in it, and they don’t sound too bad. But when I try to play a roll, it sounds like five distinct notes, ie, you hear the pitch of the grace notes. Also, I can include taps pretty well in pieces, but cuts sound really awful.
Will this come with time, is there a secret, will I have an epiphany whether I practice them or not (this happens on the dulcimer frequently), or what?
Hrmm.. why don’t you try doing a scale of well played rolls instead of doing cuts and taps separately? I actually play about 4 rolls per note and go up and down the scale as some kind of rolling warm up. Start slowly if they don’t sound good at first, keeping a proper length for each note. And of course check out http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/index.html if you haven’t already. They’ve got the best roll instructions I’ve ever seen.
I’ve also a tip on cutting that I posted sometime back. This tip only applies if you cut D E F# and G on A(i.e. L3). When you do a cut, don’t consciously think of lifting your left ring finger, but rather think of lifting your left pinky up quickly from the knuckles. Lifting your pinky causes the ring finger to be lifted just a wee bit, producing a nice short blip for the cut.
So instead of distinguishing between the movement of your ring finger and pinky, you can make use of them as one entity. It worked for me when I was having trouble getting a nice cut doing E rolls for some time.
By all means check out Brother Steve’s site as has been suggested. I remember a posting where he described the roll as having 3 parts as follows: 1-the note, 2-the cut and note, 3-the tap and note. By practicing the roll to a 1,2,3 rhythm giving equal time to each of the 3 parts rather than to the separate notes in the roll you should be able to get the proper rhythm. Do the 1,2,3 at different speeds starting slowly and gradually increasing your speed. Check out his site. He probably has a much better and fuller description.
Do the exercises that have been suggested if you feel they help you. Since I don’t enjoy doing exercises I tend to avoid them and instead try to collect pieces that serve as exercises and are also fun to play. By playing a roll etc. in an actual tune it helps to get the proper rhythm. You might also want to get software to slow down Liam O’Flynn and others so that you can hear what they are actually doing! You could follow along at half speed or slower until you can imitate them.
Just got a look at Brother Steve’s site. It’s great! I’ve bookmarked it, too. He has some great pictures in the photo gallery that make for great wallpapers.
I love his writing style (conversational), and he’s a classical violinist (like me) learning traditional Irish music.
Tom Gallagher
aka fiddling_tenor fiddlingtenor@usa.com
“If schools had glass walls, the kids could watch the fire engine go by without having to stand up.”
[ This Message was edited by: fiddling_tenor on 2002-01-11 09:29 ]
Ornamentation, whether it’s a roll, a cran, a cut, a tap, is all about rythm. Don’t be too concerned with the individual note values. They’re important too, but secondary to the rythm. The key to getting it is active listening. It’s been my experience that if you can hear it in your head, you can play it. The technique will come with practice, just don’t lose touch with the sound of it. One of my teachers once told me that learning to play well is %20 practice and %80 listening. Listen actively…sit down with your instrument and your player and use the pause and rewind. Go over individual passages multiple times. Use slowdown software if it makes it easier. Listen in the car, use your walkman…embed it in your brain the it’ll come to you.
Thanks for your responses. I actually started learning rolls using Brother Steve’s method, which is clear and simple. I’ve tried Eldarion’s method for cuts, but I think that decades of dulcimer playing have trained my fingers to work too independantly.
I agree with Kevin that rhythm is the key, and it’s by listening attentively and analytically that I know I’m not getting it. The ornamenting notes are long enough that you really hear the pitch of them, and if I try do to a reasonably fast (or should that be short?) roll, it sounds like five notes rather than a triplet separated by a couple of grace notes.
It’s a matter of knowing what I need to do (lifting and putting fingers down so fast that you can barely hear it), and not being able to make my fingers do it. It’s the cut part that really messes me up. Is it just a matter of practice, practice, practice? Can everybody train himself do do a roll well, or are some just not up to it?
One thing that really helped me (this comes from Grey Larsen…my appologies to him if I am less than expert at explaining it…) is to think of a roll as three of the same notes, just articulated in three different ways.
You’ve got the plain old note,
the same note articulated with a cut,
and the final note articulated with a tap.
These three notes should be played in time, right on the beat.
When you do the cut, your finger should come down on the hole you’re cutting right on the beat (and stay there), and when you do the tap, your finger should come down righ on the beat (and instantly release).
I also am a follower of the Brother Steve method. My first octave rolls are, on a good day, not too awful, but in the second octave I have trouble maintaining just the right breath pressure.
I play Donneybrook Fair and the Kesh A LOT for practice. I sometimes even annoy me.
I find that thinking of what I want to hear; thinking the pitch of the main notes and pretending there are no other notes than the three helps to avoid “playing” the notes on the cut and the tap. Does that make any sense at all?
On 2002-01-11 11:59, chas wrote:
It’s a matter of knowing what I need to do (lifting and putting fingers down so fast that you can barely hear it), and not being able to make my fingers do it. It’s the cut part that really messes me up. Is it just a matter of practice, practice, practice? Can everybody train himself do do a roll well, or are some just not up to it?
Charlie
I suspect it’s just practice, practice, practice.
Here is a word from someone who’ll be happy to ever be a mediocre player: If the only thing that’s wrong with your playing is that the cut on your long rolls isn’t as crisp as Matt Molloy’s, I think you’re in great shape! I am of course an acolyte of Bro Steve’s Dah-Blah-Blah cult. But it seems to me that those very crisp rolls can be found mostly with pipes players and flautists. With fiddles is already a different story, I think: My ears aren’t that fast but I think I often hear recordings of professional Irish fiddlers whose rolls are Ya-la-la-la-la and not Dah-Blah-Blah. It might be a matter of regional style, I don’t know. So, while I keep Dah-Blah-Blahing away, my slightly mushy, fivenoty rolls won’t keep me out of a session.
One thing that really helped me (this comes from Grey Larsen…my appologies to him if I am less than expert at explaining it…) is to think of a roll as three of the same notes, just articulated in three different ways.
Good stuff, that from Grey. One way to think of these movements is not “bringing your fingers up and down” but simply think of bringing your fingers down. Maybe a subtle difference, but important I think. Your fingers should be very relaxed. A tight grip is going to bollux the ornament. I’m not sure I’m articulating this very well…when doing a roll or cran my rythm goes right off if I think of bringing my finger up. Does that make sense?
Chas, I’m sorry the tip didn’t work for you. The thing about this tip is that it doesn’t work if you’ve played an instrument that requires all 5 fingers of your left hand for some time, because of all the finger independence such instruments require.
I’ve been practising the pipa (Chinese lute) for quite a bit recently and I realised that the more I do finger strengthening exercises, the more the tip doesn’t work though my fingers become more agile from those exercises. For those who just play the whistle or some instrument that only uses the 3 fingers per hand this is still applicable though.
By the way I was always under the impression that Brother Steve was a fiddler all the way!
Your tip about just thinking about the down motion of the finger is a great help.
Bloomfield wrote:
Here is a word from someone who’ll be happy to ever be a mediocre player: If the only thing that’s wrong with your playing is that the cut on your long rolls isn’t as crisp as Matt Molloy’s, I think you’re in great shape!
A great thought. I am actually happy being a soso musician, which is why I don’t work as hard at it as many on the board. I still want to improve, though.
Your remark takes me back many years. I had been playing dulcimer and trying to learn mandolin and 12-string. I went to see Andy Irvine solo, which was just an awesome show. This guy is one of the best on the face of the earth on mandolin and bouzouki, not to mention pretty good on mandola, harmonica and hurdy gurdy and a great singer. I was somewhere between having a great time and totally depressed that I would never, no matter how much I practices (which was a lot in those days) be as good a musician as him. A friend saw me and said something to the effect, “This guy’s been doing this for a living for 20 years, there’s no reason to compare your playing to his.” I felt a lot better; it’s nice to have some perspective. I’m happier being a physicist for a living and doing music as a hobby than I would be vice-versa.
