Newbie question on rolls

Whistle
1

These are the bane of my life (well, at least my week). I’ve just started playing a low D this week, but having come from the saxophone, am not entirely new. But I can’t get my rolls to sound right at all - my taps still sound a distinct note. I’ve tried so hard every day this week to get it right (I’m using ‘the low whistle book’ to learn from). How long did it take you to master rolls? I don’t feel like I should go onto the next section until I’ve cracked them, but that might take ages! Any tips?!

Thanks,

Ciara

2

I’m not sure I really mastered rolls (rolls on A and B are still a bit of challenge), but something like roll I did after about half year of practicing. But not by trying roll after roll, just normally learning tunes, slow play with “rolls”.
What probably helps me was trying rolls on low D whistle and after about half hour switched to high D whistle. And rolls on high D was suddenly much easier. But for me, a low D whistle was just “helper”, I usually don’t play on it.

(Here I wanted to write some hints “for beginner by beginner” … but it ended up on my lack of english. Sorry)

3

First, I don’t claim to be an expert instructor but here’s some thoughts as an old player.

Relax. Concentrate on the rhythm, the timing of the roll. Relax. If you know how the roll is supposed to sound, your hands will do it. Relax. Play slow, get it right, and then bring it up to speed. Relax. Patience and persistence will win out. Relax. The roll will become a rote action soon enough on all the pertinent notes. Relax.

Learning to play well is a marathon, not a sprint. A week is but a drop of rain that hardly makes a ripple in the river. Adjust your expectations of instant gratification. It will take time. How much time depends on you. Relax.

Forget everything you know about the saxophone when you pick up the whistle. You are learning a new instrument and a new musical idiom. You can remember all of that when you pick up the sax again.

Remember, it is called “playing”.

Feadoggie

4

Maybe break up the task into smaller, more manageable pieces? I’m also not an expert, but here’s how I learned to do rolls, while working through Grey Larsen’s The Complete Guide to Irish Flute and Whistle: Choose a nice comfortable note, like maybe low G or F#. Practice cutting that note. Cut it for a while, until the cut feels comfortable and sounds like a cut, consistently. Then do the same thing with the tap: keep tapping that note until the tap feels comfortable and sounds like a tap, consistently. Once you feel good about your cuts and your taps, cut your note and then tap it. Get used to that sequence: cut, tap. Cut, tap. Don’t feel like your rolls have to be “fast”, at first. Once you’ve got the cut-tap consistent and the exercise is starting to remind you of a roll, repeat the process with the other notes on your instrument.

Also, you say that your taps still sound like a note, and that you come to whistle from saxophone. Correct me if I’m wrong, but on the keyed woodwinds, they tell you to keep your fingers right next to, almost touching the keys. Well, when I do a tap on low whistle, my finger first comes up away from the hole a good bit, an inch or even two. Then, I send it down at the hole with some speed going, and as soon as my finger hits the hole, the impact sort of causes it to bounce back off. This, I think, helps keep the tap from taking too long and sounding as a distinct note.

[Cross-posted with Feadoggie, who definitely knows what he’s talking about.]

5

CiaraC: I feel that practicing rolls by themselves is very valuable. One should learn them on each note on which they are possible. However - and this is a large issue - it helps to have a knowledgeable person you trust be there at first to listen to you, and comment. And then it is good to have that person again listen from time to time, when you become more experienced.

I feel one should work on the rolls slowly, and listen very carefully to each one. Playing 4 or 5 in a row without careful listening can be a waste of time. Sure, have fun with tunes, but working on rolls, cuts, and taps outside the framework of an actual tune, can be very helpful.

I will admit that I salute you for attempting all of this on a low d to start… Me? Learning on a high d was the key. I still work on the embellishments, daily.

Best to you.
Byll

6

My advice: Don’t play or attempt rolls at all until your taps and cuts are solid. Taps are easiest, so spend a month or so just working on those in scales, between intervals, in tunes, etc. When they start to sound good, begin working on cuts. Once both elements are sounding good, rolls will come together more readily.

I find a metronome very useful–set a very slow beat, then play: Note…tap (right on the beat)…note…tap…
Same thing with cuts. (You can cut D, E, and F# with your ‘G’ finger; cut G with your ‘A’ finger and A and B with your ‘B’ finger–that’s all your cuts with three fingers.)

When it’s time to work on rolls, set a slow beat and play: Note…cut (on the beat)…note…tap (on the beat)…note. Slow and steady wins the race–you want perfect rhythm when going very slowly; that’s how you’ll have good rhythm going faster, and cuts, taps, and rolls mean nothing without solid rhythm. (And how fast the motion of a roll is isn’t a set thing–it depends on how fast or slow you’re playing.)

This may all sound slow and tedious (it is!), but it’ll really pay off in the long run.

7

I have a heck of a time with A rolls. Sometimes I get them easily, other times they’re pretty bad. I find it really hard to get a nice clean strike after the cut. My cheat is to do the cut with L1 finger, then sneak my RIGHT first finger in under the left third. It sounds odd (and I suppose it is) but it works well for me.

8

This is symptomatic of an underlying difference between ‘Celtic’ woodwinds and orchestral woodwinds, obvious to a player but difficult to put into words and difficult for people coming from the ‘legit’ woodwind world to master.

The main thing is that on orchestral/legit woodwinds each note is an individualized precious complete distinct entity, with an attack, core, and decay. On bagpipes the notes flow out of the instrument undifferentiated and with little individual value, and much of this style has been incorporated into the flute and whistle. (Setting aside the staccato possible on the uilleann pipes for a moment.)

Cuts and pats are NOT ‘notes’ in the orchestral sense but rather articulations or interruptions of the flow which take up a far shorter amount of time than any note could possibly take up in orchestral playing.

If you can hear their distinct pitch they’re too long! Pats should sound like an instantaneous ‘pop’ or blip.

One problem is finger height. Orchestral woodwind players, Boehm flute players and sax players, are taught to keep their fingers very low, in contact or nearly in contact with the touches, in what is called their ‘guide positions’. Moving a finger from its low guide position, onto the surface of a whistle, and back, is going to sound far too sluggish.

Getting sufficient speed requires distance, and you’ll notice whistleplayers, a split second before the pat, lifting the finger high above the whistle, and snapping the finger with a lightning quick motion.

Getting cuts quick enough simply requires much practice. Don’t try to shorten the duration of the cut by lifting the finger just a tad! Getting a clear-sounding cut requires the finger lifting quite clear of the hole. When I do cuts the finger comes up around an inch. There’s no substitute for sheer repetition and practice.

I’ve taught many many Boehm flute players, recorder players, sax players, bassoon players, etc etc how to play pipes or whistle or Irish flute over the years and this is something they all have trouble with.

Whatever you do, don’t think of a roll as a turn! Rather three melody notes separated by a cut and a pat, these being so short as to take no value away from the melody notes.

9

Steve 's meditations on ornamentation may be a good page to read through.

10

Thank you all so very much for your extremely considered and helpful responses. Lots of great advice there! Good to know that this might just be a symptom of my sax days rather than my being ashamedly rubbish. And I shall try my hardest to relax when I’m playing :slight_smile:. Right, I’ll read them through once more and then practise again!

Thanks again,

Ciara

11

Don’t worry, as long as you know what you’re hearing and what you want to hear you’ll get there in time. Give yourself a break from the low whistle maybe, get them right on the high whistle, enjoy success, swap back, etc