Hi, I use piper’s grip on my right hand only,
and I’m trying to shift to the more standard
form. This isn’t so easy, I don’t know how
much to curve my fingers, etc. Having
trouble positioning my hand.
Would be grateful for any advice, tips.
What’s wrong with piper’s grip? 
Anyway, I tried to change mine for some reason, and finally gave up. Wish I could help, but I don’t see how it’ll improve anything but the opinions of carping classically trained myopics. And I’m classically trained. I can say that.
Well, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with piper’s grip.
That out of the way, I’ve never been able to play flute with that grip.
Here’s how I hold mine (photos included):
http://www.flutesite.com/posture_&_grip.htm
The fingers are somewhat angled; my goal is to always keep the right thumb straight with respect to the right wrist. The thumb pushes out instead of holding up.
This approach works well for me, but, unfortunately, the joints of my hands are somewhat damaged.
I encourage you to keep experimenting until you find an approach that’s comfortable for you. Playing flute shouldn’t have to be a painful experience!
Good luck, and if there’s any way I can help, I’d be glad to.
–James
Yeah, James, that’s what I was trying to change to with my right hand. My hand didn’t seem to agree with me and asserted it preference every time I wasn’t looking.
Jim, I think piper’s grip IS a standard form for the simple-system flute. You don’t have to use the tips of your fingers to play these instruments.
Are you having some kind of trouble with the right hand? Pain?
Short version: why do you want to change grips?
Stuart
Well, I just tried piper’s grip to see why I don’t use it on flute.
What I found, for myself, is that it causes my right thumb to ride too high on the back of the flute, cramping the thumb, and also makes the keys very difficult to use.
But if you play a keyless flute, then the keys aren’t an issue, and if you don’t use Rockstro grip, I suppose the thumb wouldn’t be either.
Many good flutists do use piper’s grip, or so I’ve been told.
–James
Hmm. I play an eight-key flute, and I find the opposite. I can’t reach the keys effectively with fingertip grip. Only with piper’s grip. And, my thumb is in good position.
It must just be what you’re used to. I can’t imagine having to use the keys if my hands weren’t “piper style.”
And I even use Rockstro for my RH thumb! 
Stuart
Thanks, gang. Was advised by a well-known
teacher that I would be faster and more accurate
with a ‘standard’ grip (‘standard’ is my word).
Less motion to close holes, etc.
Well, you know, anything that will
improve my playing is welcome.
Immediately I met a fellow who told
me there are great players who play with
piper’s grip–but I’m not a great player and
I payed for the lesson…so I’ll
change…but these things take some doing.
My left hand is fine, it seems.
Many thanks for all the posts
and pictures. Much appreciated.
Hmm.. so the great players who play with piper grip started out as great players hence qualifying them to use piper’s grip?
Exactly!
Let me add I have very minimal access to
teachers, and every time I see one
(which is maybe once every six months
or more) everything changes–usually
I have to relearn the flute from the
bottom up someway or other.
Also they tell me conflicting
things…
But really what am I to do?
If it makes sense I do it.
Also I went to a very good session,
finally, while travelling. My first. A bit of a revelation.
Most of the people had been playing
fifteen years or more, they were very
talented to begin with, and some were
professionals. I taped it. Upon returning home
I visited our local session and
left pretty quickly. Went to the
car, turned on the tape, and
almost wept.
You know, in my own primitive way I play flute
beautifully, but I can’t play ITM worth
a damn (accept for slow stuff)–and it’s hard to learn tunes,
many of which don’t move me particularly,
so as to grind through them gracelessly, as
I’m afraid we do here.
Yet ultimately that’s the music the Irish
flute is for. Confusing.
You know, Jim, I keep trying to adapt my right hand to the Rockstro technique. Why? I’m not really sure. It seems more ergonomically friendly, but in my case piper’s grip is instinctive somehow, and not ergonomically an issue. For me, it has to be modified in any case: I definitely use the pads, not the tips, of my fingers. I can do this with my left hand à la Rockstro, and it doesn’t seem unworkable on the right, so in theory I ought to be able to do it. But I have small (as in SMALL) hands, and dealing with the tonehole spread leads me to the piper’s grip which eases crosswise strain on my hand. In addition to small hands, my pinkie fingers are unusually short. People actually start laughing when I show them (I’m sure it’s out of sympathy). As Sturob mentioned, dealing with keywork is part of the issue. With small hands, Rockstro technique may be less effective on flutes of simple-system construction, especially where keys are involved. The conflicting information you’re getting just goes to show that ultimately you need to decide for yourself what really works best for you. Certainly the Rockstro grip looks more dignified and attractive; but if it binds you up, I say ditch it and let your playing speak for you.
BTW, where was the session you wrote about?
That’s interesting. When I’m home at Christmas (I’ll go in a couple of weeks), I’ll have someone take digital pics of my hand positions just to how the Rockstropiper’s RH grip. I moved to Rockstro only because I thought it was a better place for the thumb, and made me support the weight of the flute “better.”
The facetious comment about piper’s grip and keys that I refrained from making previously, but will now make in a lighthearted fashion . . . is to remind everyone that pipe chanters can have keywork, and most of us play pipes with piper’s grip and keys. Now, I know playing something transverse is different than playing it vertically, but the real difference is for the upper hand, not the bottom. Piper’s works fine.
Actually, I really can’t imagine why anyone would suggest you switch unless you’re having some kind of problem. And I would resist changing for the reason that something’s “not done” that way, unless you’re given a good reason. Sure, you paid for the lesson, but you’re not paying to accept things a priori. I don’t think.
Keep the faith!
Stuart
What I’m about to add is probably completely irrelevant. However: I was at a recorder consort workshop with a very well known recorder quartet from the Netherlands last weekend. One student played a tenor recorder in C (about the size of a low C whistle) with what can only be described as piper’s grip in the right (lower) hand, though she didn’t call it that. Using anything else than the fingertips to cover a hole is usually frowned upon in recorder land. The teacher (one of that quartet) asked her why she did that, took the instrument to try for himself, and basically told her to do what works best, only suggesting a different position for the thumb to make the angle of the wrist more comfortable.
I don’t understand why my fingers should move faster at the knuckle joint just because they touch the instrument at a different point. To me, relaxing the hand, having a secure grip at the instrument (i.e. not fearing it will fall down) and feeling where the holes are and when they are sealed is more important than how my playing looks. And the point I’m trying to make with the recorder story is that even famous players and teachers may contradict each other (or even themselves).
Good technique is achieved better by feeling than by being looked at, but that’s only my rather humble opinion 
cheers anyway,
Sonja
The session was in Bloomington Indiana
at Michaels’ Uptown Cafe–every tues from about 6:30
to 9..
Grey Larson played flute and concertina.
Also there was a banjo player, a fiddler,
a guitarist/flutist, his wife, a flutist/whistle
player, and a piper. Also another flute player.
On the outskirts a harpist
and a bodhran player/guitarist.
The whistles played were a copeland, a burke,
and a sindt. Very friendly, a lot of conversation.
Grey was playing his 19th keyed century flute, I believe
it is, with a Chris abell head. This is being duplicated
by Terry McGee. Some of the other flutes
were keyed, some unkeyed, but the
performing was exceptional.
The banjo player was finishing his
doctorate in folklore at Indiana University
in Bloomington. Another flute player was
a grad student in that department.
These people knew people in Irish trad
sessions all over the country, talked about
common friends. An extraordinary
glimpse of something rather special,
I think. Best
Jim: Oh, My, that sounds like a dream!!!
Anyway, I thought I knew what everyone was referring to but, maybe not…
Stuart, by “pipers grip” do you mean the use of the finger “pads” ie. the part of the finger just distal to the DIP joint ~ or the part of the finger between the PIP and the DIP joint? I’m confused. By “fingertip” are y’all referring to R hand fingers curled up at such an angle that the fingernails are perpendicular to the tone holes?!?!?! Can anyone actually play that way?
My thought (fueled by too much turkey yesterday, and too little coffee this a.m.) is that comfort should rule… You’ll pick up on speed and technique as time goes by (sob I will, won’t I?!?) Jim you’re probably holding your flutes just right for you…
My hands are very large for a woman, and I use what I call “the pads” of my fingers for both hands with absolutely no trouble. If I had to change now, it would really set me back, I think… In fact, I stopped playing my low D whistle altogether because the last time I did so, using what I refer to as “pipers grip”, my hand cramped so badly it hurt for the entire rest of the day. (Anyone want to buy a nice beautiful used low D??? hee hee)
Mary
edited to say that I don’t have a keyed wooden flute, so don’t know if that necessarily influences the hand position…
Sorry, I can’t decipher dip and pip.
But let me say this, to answer your question.
Nobody teaches that one should come down
on the holes on the points (or bones)
of one’s fingers, perpendicular to the hole.
Many people (most, I reckon) use the
fleshy part of the first joint to close
the holes.
Piper’s grip involves covering the holes
with the middle of one’s fingers (or close
to it), not with the fleshy part of the first
joint. One’s fingers extend out over the
far side of the flute. This can help cover
holes that are far apart. I use this
on the Copeland low D, on Michael
Copeland’s advice, and transferred it
to the flute–at least the right hand.
Now I’m being told to play the flute the
way you do. My impression is that despite
the adjustment, this is good advice. Best
Jim, I think the “D” in DIP means “distal”, and the “P” in PIP means “proximal”, references to their positions relative to the palm part of the hand. Distal would be furthest away, and proximal would be nearby. I don’t have any idea as to the “IP” part of the acronym.
I suppose my right hand doesn’t use a true piper’s grip, as I now use the pads of the tips of those fingers, although the fingers are still held straight as is often found with piper’s grip. I used to use the middle pads until I started dealing with keys. Still working on that Rockstro thing, though!
Actually, there is a woman who plays flute hereabouts who does close the toneholes w/ the tippy-tips of her fingers on both hands, and plays very well. The angle of her fingertips relative to the toneholes would be roughly about 45 degrees, give or take, if that makes any sense. I don’t know how she does it. That’s out for my left hand, anyway, what with the callused fingertips I have from playing cittern.
Yes, Nano, That is correct.
I have tried on a few brief occasions to play using the “middle joints” on my R hand fingers, or “piper’s grip” as I know it. There is no way I can get anything close to a good seal over the tone holes that way. For that reason, it’s hard for me to figure how anyone else can do it either 
Mary
PIP is the proximal interphalangeal joint. DIP is the distal one, near the tip. The joint where the fingers attach at the palm is the MCP, or the metacarpophalangeal joint.
Jim mentions that no one teaches that you should cover the holes with the tippy-tips. That’s not really true. Symphonic woodwind style uses very close to the tips, or at least very close to the tippy tip. Piper’s grip, as I’ve always heard it used, is anything from the DIP itself towards the palm.
As I pick up instruments, I realize that I really play pipes near the PIP, but flutes near the DIP. But definitely on the palm side of the DIP.
That being said, I can say that I’ve heard good pipers play with the tips, and even with the tippy-tips.
So . . . unless you’re trying to overcome a specific problem, the part of the finger you use to close the holes is inconsequential and doesn’t merit changing. It’s the fingers that aren’t covering holes that cause the problem; in particular, the RH and LH thumbs. Moreso the RH thumb.
Anyway, I guess I just bristled at the idea that any teacher, specifically a simple-system teacher, would tell someone that there’s an advantage to be had from not using piper’s grip. That’s silly.
And that’s my opinion!
Stuart