Okay, I have done a search and I cannot find where I know I read at some point this past year the relative frequencies for an uilleann pipe chanter… This is for the sole purpose of a friend having a new concertina made tunes to the uilleann chanter (eg true rather than equal)… The Hz values will help the maker (well known German maker)…
Any help would be appreciated. I know it is here, but I cannot find it… I should have copied them at the time just in case such a thing comes up… so no, this is not a question about how to tune the pipes, using tuners, politics, etc… just those numbers please
I might humbly suggest that the maker make the concertina with a D drone and tune all the notes to the drone by ear.
He could use a tuner for D (assuming you want the concertina to play with a concert set) and then the rest of the notes would “work” if they worked with the concertina’s drone.
Thanks guys! The values were specifically asked for rather than tuning from a drone note, which i agree would be most beneficial and perhaps will be what ultimately happens. I am just helping out and do appreciate your help.
It’s the difference between Equal Temperament and Just Intonation.
On a D instrument, the difference in cents would be:
D 0
E +4
F# -14
G -2
A +2
B -16
These are what give a true consonance, beatless, with the drones. Most uilleann pipes I hear played by good players are tuned this way.
You have to keep in mind that on 99% of uilleann pipes the E’s and B’s are not the same pitch in the two octaves. The high E will be a tad flatter, the high B a tad sharper. The advantage to the traditional rather flat low B is that it renders an in-tune ET high B. Likewise the traditional rather sharp low E renders an in-tune ET high E.
I don’t have the actual frequencies for the above Just Intonation scale.
I’m pretty sure there’s a list of the actual frequencies in the back of Dave Hegarty’s book, The Uilleann Pipe Reedmaker’s Guidance Manual. I don’t have the book with me, but if you don’t have it, I could post them later. Let m know if you still need them.
There is an alternative tuning for C nat of +17 cents (a ratio of 9/5) which is more consonant than -4 (16/9) but the lower pitch seems melodically more appropriate. My Gallgher D chanter produces the higher pitch for C nat and requires shading with the finger to bring it down to -4 cents.
There’s also a tuning for C nat at -32 cents (7/4, the lost chord) which sounds very dark and mysterious.
That’s sort of why, despite the fact that he asked for pitches, I suggested tuning by ear to a drone.
It’s just not right to sit with a strobe tuner or whatever when you’re making an instrument, I don’t think. Get the tonic right and tune the rest by ear; it’ll sound right. What do these “published pitches” mean, anyway?
Here’s a table with notes and ratios that can be used to calculate the frequency from a reference note. If you tune to a D, using A=440, the frequency is 293.665Hz. Multiply by 4/3 to get a G.
16/15 D# +12 cents major 5-limit half-step
9/8 E + 4 cents major whole-tone
6/5 F + 16 cents 5-limit minor third
5/4 F# -14 cents 5-limit major third
4/3 G -2 cents perfect fourth
7/5 G# -18 septimal tritone
45/32 G# -10 cents high 5-limit tritone
64/45 G# +10 cents low 5-limit tritone
3/2 A +2 cents perfect fifth
8/5 Bb +14 cents 5-limit minor sixth
5/3 B -16 cents 5-limit major sixth
16/9 C -4 cents Pythagorean small min. seventh
9/5 C +18 5-limit large minor seventh
15/8 C# -12 5-limit major seventh
What these published notes rpresent are the most consonant scale, based on knowledge going back to the ancient Greeks. In a couple of cases you need to choose a tuning rather than relying on ear.
The great thing about the pipes is that you wouldn’t have to choose a tuning; rather, you can rely on the ear to pick pitches consonant with the drones. Concessions to the octaves will have to be made.
I appreciate your posting the pitches, though.
I think trying to get a concertina to play in tune with an uilleann pipe (to wit, Mr. Laban’s kitty lie over) is a tuner’s nightmare. How wet you tune the concertina matters, and then you have the ultimate in fixed tuning versus the beast of a bag-driven embouchureless two-octave conical double reed pipe with drones (not to mention regs) to contend with! Aaaaaaigh!
Good luck. It would be interesting to hear a couple of different tunings against an uillean chanter (whose, though?), I think.
I agree entirely. The ability to color individual notes, especially C nat is so … pipey.
I think these issues are only relevant when fixed tuning instruments are involved. Even the symphony orchestra doesn’t play to even temperament unless it has to. Tuning wanders towards just intonation of sorts left to its own devices.
I believe your thinking of Peter Laban and Kitty Hayes’ “They’ll be Good Yet.” 'Kitty Lie Over" is Mick O’Brien and Caoimhmin O’Raghallaigh pipes & fiddle collaboration.
