Following an interesting tangent in the ‘pipes with two octave’ thread on the Non Uilleann pipes board with pancelticpiper I wanted to broaden the discussion here in the UP forum.
pancelticpiper made some very good points mainly that UPs will not play two full octaves in a tempered scale. My thought was that the UPs were meant to be untempered and as long as they were in tune with themselves it does not present a problem?
I would not write off the UPs two octave range as ‘unuseable’ if I could not play in a jazz band, though surely pipers playing for The Brendan Voyage and other such classical pieces have a useful two octave range?
If we wanted music to be perfect we would get computers to do it.We have to ask ourselves what is music and what is it to you. Sometimes I think its a reflection of the human condition or a reflection of the human spirit either way, perfection is not the goal.
I agree with Rory. We have chosen to play an instrument of antique design, the making of which has not changed all that much in the last 200 years. While I applaud those who play for movie sound tracks and with orchestras and etc. because it certainly enhances the public awareness and interest in our instrument, I find the uilleann pipes charming and engrossing for their unique personality, which includes a lack of tempered perfection. Even more so than with some (many?) other expressions of music, uilleann piping is about expression and feeling more than classical western music perfection.
Since when is the equal tempered scale “perfection”? It is a compromise so that one instrument can play in any key and be sort of in tune in any. It is not really in perfect tune in any key and will be a bit out of tune on certain notes. Our ear has become accustomed to equal tempered instruments, like the piano, and consider it’s lack of pure fifths and thirds to be “close enough”. The pipes are in tune in the keys they are made to play in. Try to play a D set in the key of F, and it is quite out of tune in that key. There are some compromises in pipes tuning so they blend every note of the chanter to best harmonize with the drones.
Which temperament are the pipes? My tuner offers several different settings, but I can’t ever remember, and unfortunately there’s no “tantrum” option …
Thanks, Nico! I shall set ClearTune to “Just Intonation” and stray no more. I think I was curious at one point, started fooling around, and it was A=WTH from there.
If we wanted music to be perfect we would get computers to do it
First we would have to define perfect…
One* could define perfect but I doubt we could!
*that is one undefined person, I’m not referring in particular to the poster who’s words I quote, and with which I strongly agree - apart from the last bit:
perfection is not the goal
maybe it is - but maybe it does not mean:
a perfectly equal tempered scale (for me it never means this!)
or … ___________ you fill in something
maybe perfection is not the same every night
maybe perfection is not the same for every listener
Just do the best you can to make nice music. Every day is an adventure if you make it so. Some days, the pipes will play themselves. And what’s more, some days they will even be playing you!
to say that: If the chanter harmonizes perfectly to the drones, perfect straight A and G in both octaves, broad F# and B in tune with the drones, both Ds anyway perfect, then you will be very close or even in the natural tuning of D (or G, both are close together!). There is not such a mystic thing about natural tuning. It’s easily to be recognized. It’s natural tuning when the harmonies sound in perfect vibrations:
But it’s indeed strange to play in an orchestra, which I did several times. Good classical musicians will recognize, that our Bs and F#s are flat! They are indeed F#: -14 Cent below tempered tuning, B: -16 calculated on the D-Scale.
Never play in strange keys! The further you are away from D or G the more the pipes will be out tuning. Avoid Key of Fnat, Bb, Eb, Ab or E, B, F#! Same for minor keys, avoid Bminor, F#minor, C#minor, Fnatminor.
I think it’s good to realize here that this is true only when talking about playing a D set. Most of those other keys can work just fine with flat pipes.
Concert pitch and flat pitch are all relative. If there are a certain number of keys that dont sound well on concert pitch there are the same number for flat pitch.
I heard a story about a group of poets getting together and deciding to write down, “The Rules of Poetry.” (As they say, alcohol may have been a factor.) They offered up suggestions for awhile until one of them (who later won a Booker Prize as a novelist) announced, “There are no Rules.”
Yep, but they overlap in such a way that some keys work better with different pitched pipes. For example if you play G tunes on B pipes, the music that comes out will be in E. So, if tunes in G sound good on concert pitch pipes, as was stated before, then tunes in the key of E will sound similarly good with B pipes, tunes in D# on Bb pipes, tunes in Fnat on Cnat pipes and tunes in F# on C# pipes etc.
Anyway the main thing is that someone enjoys the music, either playing it or listening to it.
In that thread I don’t think I was talking about Equal Temperament v Just Intonation, because being “in tune” is a relative thing, and playing “in tune” against the drones means having the chanter in tune to Just Intonation, while playing “in tune” against a keyboard or fretted instrument accompaniment means having the chanter in Equal Temperament.
In other words neither JI nor ET is perfect for all situations.
I think the point I was making was that when a composer calls and asks what the uilleann pipes do (on the rare occasions where they bother to ask before they write the part) I tell them that the range is “D above Middle C, to A an octave and a half above”. The reason is, in that range all the notes on my chanter are perfectly in tune to ET, and all the notes are musically useful, in that I can bend them, play vibrato on them, do a number of ornaments on them.
High B on my chanter and on most Concert Pitch chanters is sharp (not as bad on my chanter than most, but still) and has a loud scream-y tone unlike the other notes. On my chanter the only fingering that gives a precisely in-tune (to ET) High B is x|xox|xxxx and I can’t do much with that note: I can’t bend it or play vibrato on it or anything.
I told the story of a composer who had been told that the range of the uilleann pipes was D to B, and its favourite key was G, so he wrote several air-like tunes for an album of original compositions which had the pipes end on a long held out High B. He imagined that the pipes could hold out this long High B, hitting the note very sweetly and then having the note feather off to make a lovely gentle ending, with the pipes playing the sweet 3rd of the chord. When I demonstrated that High B isn’t like that he re-wrote the tunes to end on High G, and have the violin play the High B in the soft sweet way he wanted.
my opinion is that the Pipes with no doubt have to be in absolute correct Just Intonation - or Pure Tuning, as we call it in Germany -, as far as it anyway can constantly be produced because of the variable higher and lower pressure on the reeds. But that is also the case with flutes, clarinettes, saxophones, oboes and other mouth-blown instruments. Most of the pipes are anyway within JI although most of the pipers are not aware of that!
The reason is to be in harmony with the drones. The high range of upper harmonies above each basic note - drones and chanter - will force the Piper to tune in correct Just Intonation. Otherwise it will sound really wrong, audible for nearly each listener. That is also the case on the violin, but not on the flute, not on most of the pianos and accordeons, not on the saxophones, synthesizers, concertinas … For them it doesn’t matter how they tune apart from a minimum of a compromise tuning → “EI” as Johann Sebastian Bach invented. These instruments will not show the mistone so clearly.
The only way to change to equal intonation is to move holes higher oder lower in the chanter or to lower by closing with wax. For single notes in slow tunes one can manage by the pressure. Test it with a good tuner:
If you tune to D-Concert-Pitch:
Tune D and A to +/- 0 Cent (although A has to be at +2 Cent, does not make such a big difference on x|xxo|ooxx , A with +2 will fit with x|xxo|xxxx on most chanters).
Test the G. It has to be 2 Cents flat by putting the third finger on the hole: x|xxx|oxoo best to the drones
F# has to be flat for -14 Cent
B has to be flat for -16 Cent
C has to be sharp by +18 Cent
C# flat for -12 Cent
E at +4 Cent
D# at -30 Cent
Bb has to be sharp at +14 Cent
compared with Equal Tuning, same in both octaves. Good tuners you can change to Pythagoras Tuning which is very close to Pure Intontation. I have got a good price compromise with a Korg OT-120 for about 85 EUR.
Your Problem with the upper B relates to a too wide bore in the staple or the upper part of the Chanter next to the cane. If all the other notes are correct comparing the lower an upper octave and only the upper B is too high, than there is too much space for the B-wave, which allows the high B-wave to move too fast, means too high.
You can control it by placing a piece wire with a knob into the staple or close the staple after unwinding the cane from the staple. I examined it very often. You can easily check by putting a brass or silver wire of 0.5 or 0.6 mm with a little knob 10 mm away from the upper end and move that wire up and down in the staple. This will be a resistance for the wave. After you have found the area in the staple where it corrects by lowering the B you can close the staple at that point by pressing it together, lets say for 0.5 or 1 mm in diameter, but only on a lenght of 5 - 10 mm. Try it! It works fine. That softens also the B-note!
Would you please let me know your experience? I will appreciate your and other Pipers opinions about the case. Not missing to say, that it is the same tuning in all Chanter Keys Bb B, C, C#, all notes relative to the Concert Pitch.
