Hi, I’m a new user of this wonderful forum and a new ab-user of ITM. I play already the boehm system flute and I’d like to switch to a simple system. I’d prefer to get an 8 key since I may be playing other music on it. I read in other threads some info about the wheres and hows of getting an Irish flute, and I saw there are many makers out there that seem to offer very good products: the only negative side seems to be the wait. I was wandering if there is a market for second hand 8 key flute (all the flute I see FS are keyless or 6 keys at the most). I would be interested in a Murray or a Grinter. Any idea of what price and availability for a second hand might be?
Thank you
Hey Terry,
There is a secondary market for 8 keyed flutes, but as you have probably already noticed, it isn’t common. There are a lot more keyless flutes for sale, since a lot of people start off on a keyless and then wait for a keyed flute. Once they get their keyed flute, they sell the keyless. For most people, once they have a fully keyed flute from a maker they like, that’s going to be their flute for a long time.
So, if you want to get your hands on an 8 keyed flute, you have a few options. 1) You can get on a maker’s list and wait it out, 2) You can ask around the boards to see if anyone is selling a modern 8 keyed flute, or 3) you can look at getting an antique flute. To be honest, you are probably going to have the best luck with option #3. There seem to be more antique 8-keyed flutes for sale than modern flutes.
You are probably also going to have to be more flexible in terms of the makers you are interested in. For instance, I don’t believe Sam Murray makes fully keyed flutes - although Grinter does. Someone can correct me if this is wrong, but I believe Murray only does up to 6 keys. Overall, there are certainly fewer makers who do all eight keys, since the low C# and C keys are hard to make and time consuming.
Short answer is that it is going to take some time and you are going to pay a fair amount of money for the flute. One option to think about is you may want to get a keyless flute to play Irish music and keep your Boehm flute for other kinds of music.
Hope that helps
Brendan
Brendan has given absolutely excellent advice, so I will just chime in from my own perspective:
I absolutely love my eight-key, which happens to be an antique - my online name is the name of the maker. Once you go 8-key, you don’t go back.
I won’t bore you with how I got mine (although there is a story), but I can tell you the my friend, who posts here as Aanvil, is becoming quite the collector and has picked up some real gems. Perhaps he will reply here. It’s worth the hunt, and the experience will be enlightening. I wouldn’t get too hung up on maker until you know more. For every flute that has its fans, you will find those who hate them. Play as many as you can get your hands on, even keyless, so you know the basic design you want. And keep your eye on eBay!
If you’re lucky enough to get something from one of the members here, you probably won’t have any problem sending it back if you are not satisfied, which is the only way I’d buy a flute I hadn’t played.
Good luck! 
Spot on advice from Brendan, with the one caveat from me that if you think you want the keys it is best to convert directly to them rather than doing a double re-learning process through a keyless stage. Buying unrestored antiques from eBay or even from dealers is a bit fraught if you don’t know the ropes - you can get bargains, but they may need a good deal of work to make usable, or you may waste your money on something duff. But there are ways…
PM sent.
A thought, FWIW.
You may wish to consider carefully what other music you will play.
Others here may be better situated than I on this matter,
and my impression is this–the Boehm flute, which you already
play, may be far more agile and easy to play for classical music,
jazz, and so on. This is part of the reason it replaced 8-keyed
flutes, in fact.
At the end of the day, even with an 8-key, you may find yourself
playing the Boehm for this ‘other’ music. If so, you can spare yourself
some trouble and perhaps considerable expense by getting
a 6 key flute–there are some good ones available on Doc Jones’s
site (The Irish Flute Store) right now.
Irish flutes rule for ITM, no question.
Welcome!
It’s entirely possible to play ITM on a Boehm flute, although a simple system flute is traditional, for a number of good reasons.
Let me ask, please, in addition to ITM what other music could you have in mind?
BTW, I enjoy all sorts of music, from around the world.
Flute maker Terry McGee might have some keyed flutes ready for sale…
The present economic climate is, sadly, drawing some instruments onto the market whose owners would perhaps have preferred not to have to sell, but that does mean that someone with the wherewithall to buy might find a bargain or two by waiting and sniping.
My limited experience is that the low C and C# keys on D flutes don’t often work very well. The notes are weak–if they sound at all. I visited Patrick Olwell’s shop and asked him about that. Patrick is an incredible player with unbelievable power and a fantastic collection of antique instruments. He played a few 8-keyed flutes for me and a few had passable low notes, but not too many. It was a cold day and he hadn’t had a chance to warm the flutes he played up, so maybe that demonstration has to be taken with a grain of salt. But my point is that I’d be very cautious about spending a lot for an 8-keyed flute because you think you will then have those 2 bottom notes.
But I understand why you’d like to have a flute that could handle more than just ITM. I’m in the same position and what I’m doing is saving up for a nice 4-keyed C flute to add to my two keyed D flutes. That should allow me to play with singers in the common key of C more easily than struggling with those bottom notes on an 8-keyed D flute and i think two 4-keyed flutes probably cost about what one good 8-keyed D flute would.
Just to further confuse the issue with facts… 
Some historical flutes didn’t have the low C# and C. 6-key flutes were not as common as 8-key flutes, but, going by memory, I think it was the French makers who produced quite a few of them.
In modern times, although there is still the trend to push the bottom range of the flute down further and further–I have seen a photo of a Boehm-system flute that went down to the A below middle C!–some players still feel like having the “long foot” with the C# and C makes the whole flute stuffy and less responsive. There are several modern makers who offer the option of a D foot on some very high-end Boehm-system instruments.
I play quite a bit of “art music”–especially Baroque–on my Hamilton 6-key, in addition to ITM. It’s rare that I miss not having the low C# and C.
Although I would love to someday work out Syrinx on a simple system instrument…I think it would sound awesome on a wooden flute!..and I won’t be able to on that flute. That’s my only major complaint.
–James
Libraryman - while I concede those notes/their mechanism can be problematic, I have done pretty well so far at getting both pewter plug and padded varieties of “grasshopper” low C/C# keys to work well and reliably on most of the flutes with them that I have done up. On my own R&R they work very well. My experience is that the bad rep they have both in their own time and more recently isn’t really deserved if you have the patience to set them up just so. Embouchure technique to support those notes is also an issue…
Further to what Jem says, and having spent loads of time in the Olwell shop, I wouldn’t be too quick to judge the totality of 8-keys by the state of a few examples lying around in Nellysford! I’ve never detected that the Olwells are particularly fond of pewter plugs, and I don’t think they bother too much with them, unlike Chris Wilkes who has made a life study of getting them to work properly. Not that Patrick couldn’t tweak one properly, but I identify him as a pragmatist whose priorties may lie elsewhere.
Hard to beat a properly-working set of plugs! Cheers,
Rob
A couple of years ago I bought a Rudall and Rose flute from Patrick Olwell, one that he’d been playing himself for a while (as opposed to having it just sitting around the shop). He did a little bit of tweaking on it before he handed it over to me, but not all that much, and when he gave it to me it was with the caveat that the low C/C# keys didn’t really sound. I was okay with that, but just in the course of my initial playing of the flute I rolled the foot joint in a bit to make it easier to push firmly on those keys with my little finger and discovered that the plugs actually sealed very well and the notes sounded great. My point here is not to say that Patrick didn’t care or that he didn’t know what he was doing there, but instead to point out that even in their optimal state those two keys are the most finicky notes on the flute. You have to have your embouchure in its best low D form and on top of that have the flute put together such that you can firmly push those keys down and seal the plugs. Even on the best flute, those keys are definitely not “plug and play”. “Use them or lose them” is the much better watchword there. But as Rob says, when they’re working they’re brilliant things to have.
The two low keys on the Grinter 8-key worked well.
They were plugs, not pads, but I don’t know if they were made
of pewter.
I’d agree that if you set them up just right and play them just right, you can get reasonable results from many of the C/C# keys, but most of the designs are rather unforgiving in terms of how you play, and can get out of adjustment too easily. The problem with most antique and modern (but non-Boehm) designs is in the location of the pivot pins. You basically have a lever with a mechanical disadvantage of around 3 to 1. So when you depress the key touch, the plug or pad moves about 3 times as far, but exerts only about a third of the force. This means that you have to press down pretty hard on the touch to transmit enough force to seal the hole. Any mis-adjustment of the pad or plug means that you probably need more force than your pinky finger can comfortably generate. Another problem is that you tend to shift your other fingers slightly to get enough leverage with the pinky finger, and this shifting can move some of the other keys (typically the short F and the long C natural) enough to generate air leaks. There are some modern designs where the blocks and the pivot locations have been changed to provide a more friendly lever arrangement and the ones I have tried seem to work quite a bit better.
Dave Copley
Loveland Ohio
Another thing to point out about the C/C# keys is that they’re on simple-system flutes. One of the wonderful things about simple-system flutes is that every note has its own character. If you want every note to sound the same, your best solution is a Boehm flute. If you want a simple-system flute, I would think that you wouldn’t mind something on which every note didn’t sound the same, and if there’s a little added character to the C-foot notes, well, that shouldn’t be a problem.
I’ve had three 8-keys, one modern, two antique. The modern one worked impeccably (plugs), one old one just wasn’t a decent flute, and the other antique, which I still have, worked fine till I repadded it. I keep rubber bands around the foot keys to keep them in shape, and they work fine. I really need to do the foot pads again, as I’ve learned a bit since the last time and have some better tools.
I really need to do the foot pads again, as I’ve learned a bit since the last time and have some better tools.
If your pads are still pliable and in decent shape, and if you used a pad glue like shellac which can be melted over heat, you can keep the same pads and just reseat them by “floating them in.”
You’ll need a clean, cool flame, some clean cloth, a wet sponge or paper towel, and a pair of needlenose pliers.
First, work with one key at a time. Remove the low C# / C key mechanism. Usually the C-sharp goes on first and then the C, so do the C-sharp first unless it’s reversed on your flute.
Lightly dampen the pad surface with clean water. Put the pad back on the footjoint and carefully hold the key over the flame, constantly moving it back and forth, until the glue melts, which is usually only one or two seconds. Be careful that the flame only touches the key and not the wood!
Use caution as the key will be very hot. Protecting your fingers with the clean DRY cloth (between your skin and the key), press the key firmly against its seat so that the pad moves in its melted glue and “floats in”–i.e. hits its seat cleanly and evenly.
Then take the damp sponge or paper towel and use it to cool the key and set the glue or shellac.
Some things to be careful of: pads will burn. They can catch fire. Wood will burn, and it can catch fire. You can also be easily burned, and your sleeves can catch fire.
Please do not attempt this if you have any doubt of your ability to carry it out. Please listen to that “little voice” and if it says “stop!” then stop and seek help. Any local repair shop that works on clarinets can do this for you, and it should not be expensive or time consuming.
Disclaimer: I’m not responsible if anything bad happens to you or your instrument. I am not suggesting you follow these directions, merely presenting them in an informational manner. It’ll work but you’re on your own if you try it.
–James
Dave’s exactly right about the mechanical disadvantage problem with 8-key flutes. It wasn’t so bad in the earlier days as the foot was longer (far too long for our pitch!). As the feet became shorter (overcoming flat foot syndrome and then further as pitch rose), the mechanical advantage got worse!
A note too on pewter plugs, as fitted to most 19th century flutes open keys (and sometimes on other keys as well). You can’t expect them to be 100% airtight dry. (You might be lucky, but recognise that you are being lucky!). They need to be kept a little oily - it’s the oil film that renders them airtight. Thomas Lindsay tells us, in 1829:
“The only directions which we can venture to give, in reference to the METAL PLUG KEYS, is that they should be kept perfectly clean and free from dust, and occasionally slightly touched with a very little oil; if more is required, the maker must be consulted.”
(More at:http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Lindsay.htm )
Don’t use a thin oil - it will creep. Use something with some body, like motor oil. Sperm whale oil was traditional, but a little unfashionable these days. Close the key and put a single drop of oil on the junction between key and seat. A toothpick is handy for applying and guiding the oil (keep an iodine bottle full of the oil with a toothpick inside it in your flute care kit). Use it to induce the drop to run right around the junction. Only now open the key and work it a few times to help the oil equalise all round.
Now you should find the keys sealing well and giving a decent C and C#. If not, the keys are deranged and Lindsay’s advice to consult the maker applies. Be aware that some of the earlier 19th century makers have retired…
Terry
Great stuff, excellent!
Also known as clock oil, I learned about it while working with antique, mechanical clocks.
I apply it by first dipping the end of a metal pin into the bottle, and the pin then holds a small drop of the oil.
A little goes a long way.
Save those whales! IMO and experience, oiling pewter plugs just ain’t necessary, and even sperm oil would attract gunge and gum them up unless regularly cleaned off and renewed. It might be a useful short-term fix with one that is misbehaving, but I don’t think it is necessary on well adjusted, undamaged plugs.
To try to prove my point, I rushed this video clip off when I got in from my school run this-morning - so my embouchure wasn’t warmed up and I have chapped lips from having a streaming cold earlier in the week, but none-the-less I can sound all the flutes adequately down to their lowest note. Here are seven flutes with foot keys, five with pewter plugs, two with pads. I would have included a modern flute with pads, but the only one in the house (an Ormiston I am overhauling for its owner Andy Mac of Crasdant) is currently stripped down for re-padding. Interestingly enough, after I’d done the clip a Prowse flute arrived in the post for overhaul and further restoration work (it has had some and is from a C&F contact/recent thread!), is playing OK as it is and right down to the un-oiled pewter plugged low C#/C!
Also, while not arguing with the basic mechanics David describes, I don’t find I have to exert significant pressure (as I hope the video shows) to close these keys - again provided they are very accurately adjusted so they work evenly as a pair and the pads or plugs bed in cleanly. If you get the rotation of the foot joint just right (can’t adjust on a German style combined lower body+foot of course, but their keys are usually very sensibly located in my experience!) you shouldn’t be hitting long F or upper C keys by accident! The main problem I experience at times is my R3 partly moving off its hole and leaking, which of course disrupts sounding the low notes - but that is usually a matter of adjusting the foot rotation a millimetre or two, or just possibly correcting hand posture a touch. The only flute mentioned here that I have any difficulty with is Andy Mac’s Ormiston - which has too-long touches for the C/C# keys which crowd R3 on its tone-hole and can be caught by accident - the touches need to project up-tube less by about 2-3mm.
I will admit to one recurring problem - the C# plug of my R&R is perhaps a tad soft and with regular use it develops a ring-dent where it contacts its receiver plate which, eventually, causes it to stick down. Oil would not prevent this. When it starts sticking, I use a piece of smooth steel to rub the chamfered contact face of the plug smooth again by pressure, not removing metal so far as possible (as filing would). It will in the end have to be replaced, I suppose, but at 160+ years it has a while yet to go!
I rest my case! I’m off to polish Edinburgh silver keys and repad them!
Edited for a typo only.