I’ve been playing a boehm flute for quite some time (primarily classical) but have recently been looking to irish/traditional music - enjoying playing it very much. Anyway - as you all probably know you can play all musical keys on the boehm quite easily - here I mean like switching from D-major to Bb-major to C-minor etc. The keys on the boehm flute are quite user-friendly that way. My question relates to doing this on a keyless flute - CAN you do that? I’ve been reading a lot on the web and several mention covering holes only half - but do you really do it that way - like playing a C-minor piece on a D keyless flute?
I can understand that most Irish music is in D, G or perhaps A - but still - I do have have some notes where the pieces come in almost all keys - hence I was wondering
Oh - I’ve bought a very cheap polymer “traditional” 6-key flute on ebay (just to see how it feels ) - and I must admit I find it rather difficult to play - but I guess that’s probably because I’m used to my boehm. But I can understand that quality/tone etc. is related to prize so maybe that’s influencing it, too… I mean - maybe it would be easier on a decent flute? So, for now I puff on with my boehm
Welcome Brian! Yes you can play a tune in any key with a keyless flute…but you’re not going to sound great doing it. Some of the accidentals half hole OK, some cross finger OK, but they rarely pop out with the clarity of a keyed note (such shaded notes add charm to Irish tradional music, though, since they’re not all that common). So, if you want those accidentals to be clean notes, you need a keyed traditional flute. I haven’t played a Boehm flute in 24 years, so I’m going from memory here, but they are eaiser to play in any key than even an 8 keyed simple system flute. That said, the keyed simple system flute was played in orchestras for quite some time so you become better at it with time.
A cheap 6 keyed polymer flute…who’s the maker? When I think cheap, I think under $100 USD, and I can only picture one of those cheap middle eastern made Eb flutes that they now sell as D flutes (it plays a low D when you close the low C and C# keys - that does not make it a D flute!).
Do you maybe have an M&E? The keys should function essentially just as well on an M&E as a more expensive keyed simple system flute like an Olwell or a Wilkes (although they’d look nicer, cost a lot more, and likely operate just a bit more smoothly - M&E keywork is described by many as functional).
Do you maybe have an M&E?
No, nothing like that - maybe I was wrong when I wrote “polymer” - it’s in fact “ebonite”. You can see one via the link below. Anyways - I didn’t really buy it believing that this would be a fantastic flute - but to try it out.
I have read about the M&E - that they should be good for beginners. So maybe that’s the way to go. Would you guys generally recommend a keyless flute or a keyed one?
Most people recommend starting on a decent keyless flute. (Two things that flute is not)
If you are just starting to learn ITM you definitely won’t need the keys. You will play Cnat crossfingered, and avoid tunes in A. Other than that, the key is to listen, and to try NOT to sound like a boehm flute player playing a six hole flute.
Ooh, an actual owner of one of those alleged flutes in D! What note does it play with just the 6 finger holes covered? If that’s D, then it really is a D flute, if it’s Eb, then they’re falsely marketing them as a D flute.
What material is used as the cork in the headjoint? Is it squishy stuff or real cork? Your flute might improve vastly just by replacing that with real cork from a wine bottle.
What I want to know is, is the case any good? I have been thinking of getting one of these flutes, and throwing away the flute, so that I can have the case.
No, it’s not. I have one of those. I was just curious about a 16 £ flute… Well it’ s correct for the price. The case is cheaply made. The pitch reminds me the “high pitch” or “english pitch” some late 19c english flutes have: too high for playing in D, too low for Eb.
I had to remove th “C” and “C#” keys and transform the foot to get a decent low “D”, that was terribly sharp.
And I’ll say, like everybody here: to learn irish music, get a good keyless. I’d recommend polymer, but some makers make good inexpensive wooden flutes.
Coming from the Boehm flute, there is also a big difference in lip position: you have to cover more the embouchure hole on simple system flutes. All instructors from 18c and 19c (Quantz, Nicholson, Tulou, Tromlitz…) say the embouchure hole should not be placed in line with the toneholes, but really inward.
On a keyless D flute you will only be able to play scales relative to the D major key signature as “cleanly” (without cross fingereing or half holing) as on a keyed chromatic flute. If you wish to play these scales in all other key signatures you will need to have a set of 12 flutes in the 12 different keys. (With cross fingerings or thumbholes you can decrease this to 6 flutes).
It plays Eb As for the plug - it does seem to be cork. The case is actually decent for that price but I doubt it’s something for you pro guys
And I’ll say, like everybody here: to learn irish music, get a good keyless. I’d recommend polymer, but some makers make good inexpensive wooden flutes.
Ok, I’ve been reading about both M&E and Seery, which both sound to be nice polymer flutes. Having read a lot it seems that the M&E (at least from what I gather) to some degree seems a bit more “user-friendly” - is that true? I think I’ll go for the one that’s easiest to get started on as a beginner.
Oh, one more thing - and I saw this picture:
It almost looks like a boehm-style lip-plate - is it really or is it for for decorative purposes?
From a musical point of view, M&E flutes are very good and they’re easy to play as well, especially the RR model. But they are quite heavy, and I don’t like their look very much.
The Seery, as you probably read, being a Pratten model, asks a bit more air, and can be tiring especially for a beginner. But they are very good too… One day I’d like to try one of his small-holed flutes.
My own polymer flute was made by a member of this board, Jon C. I am very very happy with it. There is a thread about his delrin flutes here.
The Boehm-looking lip plate on the pictured flute raises the chimney height of the blow-hole and give a bit more volume.
If you think keys are essential then you should listen to Brian Finnegan, Niall Keegan, and Mike McGoldrick. These players do amazing things with a keyless flute. But they probably practise more than those people who say that keys are essential. Keys are helpful, certainly. But they are not essential.
You know, technically, they wouldn’t really be falsely marketing. A lot (most… even all) of the old 8-key flutes were listed as C flutes, because they were non-transposing. But they clearly played D as the “bottom” note. So I wonder if it really qualify as false marketing?
Except that if they were following the old custom they should be calling them Db flutes, if they are only a half-step up.
Our “D” flutes really are C flutes…those old advertisements were correct. If you play any note on your flute it corresponds with the note on a piano. Our calling them D is reflective of the scale they’re tuned to not what key the instrument is in.
In contrast, the Indian D flutes on eBay are really in Eb - they’re transposing each note of our flutes up 1/2 step.
Well, no… If our flutes in “D” are really in C (I agree) , then the “Eb” on eBay is in fact in… Db (One half step higher). When you play the “low C” (with the two pinkie keys), the note you hear is D flat. At least this is true for mine, advertized as Eb, it plays naturally an Eb scale, and goes down to Db.
An alto sax for example is really an Eb instrument. When you play a C on it, you actually hear an E flat.
It’s confusing: I know a lot of different ways to give the key of a flute:
-The classic way is to take the real sound you hear when you play C. Then an irish flute is in C.
-The second one is to take the scale the instrument plays naturally without keys, cross fingerings or half holing. Then an irish flute is in D, and that’s the method we use naturally.
-The third one is to take as a reference the scale you begin with only three holes closed: that’s the “asian” method used for bansuris and dizis. Then an irish flute would be in G.
-For naming the arabic nay, you take the lowest minor scale you can play naturally on it: with this method an irish flute would be an E…
-There are probably other methods around the world
I remeber endless discussions with classical musicians who did not understand how I could play with a “D” flute without transposing. It was because with their system, my flute was actually in C.
You’ve really lost me here Eric. Sweetie, the piano has every semitone on it so any flute in any key will correspond to the appropriate notes on the piano providing it is pitched in same Hz. The piano is not a “C instrument” notwithstanding the origin of its keyboard layout was devised to make it easiest to play C major.
Any good Irish flute (usually with tuning slide) marked as D will be in D major D E F# G A B C# D+. I took my Seery Blackwood down to Terry McGee for some tweaking and on his big gizmo tuner thingie it registered at D 440 on the bottom note and the other notes followed suit as above to describe D major. So did the other D flutes in his workshop.
As for South Asian flutes purportedly in D but actually in Eb two explanations come to mind,
An example of cruddy craftsmanship and/or marketing
the instrument may be in D in climate that is similar to the climate in which it was made.
welcome to the land of happy fifers and flutists. i would assume you can play any key with just about any flute… after all, there are ways to play all the sharps and flats and all the notes of the scale, it would just be played differently on a D flute than a G flute or a C flute.
Talasiga - in orchestral terms, at least here in the US, a non-transposing isntrument is usually stated to be in C. For example, if you take out a piece of sheet music, play a D on it on an ITM D flute, you get D. Unless you transpose playing a D on an Eb flute (as most players consider D all fingers down) and you’ll not get a D.
I realize your musical knowledge is excellent, but you’re by far in the minority if on an Eb flute you consider the the fingering that gets a D on a piano a D…
So, for now I puff on with my boehm 
- but to try it out.
