Is a pakistan chanter really unreedable. And really unplayable.
If so I would like to know now before I work my &%^$ off on
an unplayable piece of $^%&. This is tough enough to learn
by itself. I don’t need more problems to contend with. Please
let me know.
Thanks
Hosehead48
I can tell you about the one and only Pakistan made chanter I tried to reed. It was tonally retarded, it took something like 2 rushes and tape to get 1 8ve in tune. And the metal was cheap and nasty. I’m sure there are plenty of past threads to read over.
Alan
Ryan,
If you can make it out to the session up in Salt Lake tonight we can have a look and see where things stand with your set.
Drop me an email if you need directions or anything.
Bri~
Ryan,
Pipemaker Tim Britton has been known to successfully re-work Uilleann pipes made in Pakistan. You should contact him for advice. His website is:
http://www.skep.com/britton/
It depends on the maker. I have reeded chanters that were OK for a beginner, while another Pakistani maker’s stuff was totally unplayable crap. I think Tim Britton only reworks stuff from the better maker.
Ted
Ted,
Is there anything in the turning or decoration that makes the better maker easier to identify in advertising pictures? This might offer a lower cost alternative for beginning pipers. I have one set of Pakistani GHP that is so good and mellow in sound that I’m going to use it as a model for copying in better wood(drones only; the chanter is a bit wonky). Sometimes you strike lucky. Most of the time you get expensive firewood or wallhangings.
the one on this website
www.silverbushmusic.com
is the pakistani chanter I started with as a practice set. If you have this one you will find it difficult to reed, but works just fine with the reed it has. it has a wooden (cane?) reed instead of a plastic one and so sounds much better but does need breaking in. this is not the one tim britton does.
silverbushmusic has stopped selling the model tim rebuilds but MidEast still does ( www.mid-east.com ). I use this one as my full set. he said when he gets the chanter it is unplayable (and judging by mideast’s site has a plastic reed). to get it to work tim has to fill in and move or enlarge every tonehole and he probably does something with the bore as well. He then makes a proper cane reed for it. It works, and has three keys, but I just keep it as a spare. I don’t particularly care for Tim’s reeds, I find them too loud, so I rereeded it with one of my creamcheese container reeds and it sounds much better…the rest of the set, once rebuilt, is really good and I do recommend as a low-cost-low-wait alternative for your first full set (so long as you don’t mind doing a wee bit of reg adjusting on your own beyond what tim does for you).
No, you shouldn’t contact him–unless you’ve got one he’s already re-worked. He’s tired of the whole headache and doesn’t want to ever see a Pakistani chanter again, as he is busy making and reeding his own, which is easier than reworking somebody else’s piece of rubbish.
Where is that SLC session? I was through in July and nobody I asked had any idea where an Irish pub might be much less an Irish session, and much much much less an house session.
Royce
http://www.saltlakepipers.com/Events-Sessions.html
info is also found on:
http://www.sessioneer.org/default.asp
and
http://www.thesession.org/
Brian~
I recently found myself in the posession of a practice set that I thought was something different but it turned out to be a thing made by the Gentlemen at Mid-East 
I bought it coz I promised a student I’d help get a bag an’ bellas to get him going.
Hmmmmm, I thought to my self, how the “bleep” wil I get this to work?
i’ve played pipes for 20 odd years but reed making is kind of a new thing to me. But after a few attempts with reeds and putin wax and brass rings in certain holes I got the thing in tune (A 440) with itself.
It was a lot of work and I’m not saying that all those Mid-East chanters can’t be tuned at all. They’re not the worst beginer chanter in the world but I really wouldn’t bother unless you have access to a very understanding reed maker.
And I’m sure if the gentlemen craftsmen at Mid-East got the proper measurements for chanters they may do a decent job but till they do, avoid them if you can. 
Never say never but be carefull and don’t land yourself with a chanter that you can’t reed just coz its cheap.
Tommy
Britton seems to be the guru of pipe rework. Who else would be more knowledgeable to ASK advice of Royce??
- I see no harm asking his advice, he might offer a solution to the guy. It’s certainly better than sitting back pondering if he would be upset if asked these silly questions.
- his website still lists he reworks pipes from Pakistan. If it’s such a headache, wouldn’t he remove it from his price list?
In a recent e-mail (December) Tim told me that he is glad to re-work Pakistani chanters, as they give beginners an affordable way to get into piping, and mentioned no plans to stop.
The chanter I reeded came from Shark-in-the-Morning. It was one of their first ones and I have not seen any more like it. The externals have probably changed since they started.
Ted
in royce’s defense…
when i was calling around to get my full set i didn’t even know about the rebuilding until it was suggested by one of the pipemakers (tho i don’t remember which), with the caution, “he hasn’t updated his website in awhile, I don’t think he’s doing them anymore that they’re just more trouble than they’re worth.”
HOWEVER - BE IT KNOWN that when i called tim he said that while yes, he had decided to stop for awhile, but he had recently been planning to start again. i think my order was the first (or one of the first) of the new batch. he made no complaints about the order, and said that they were a good/fast/cheap way to get a “decent” full set (read: you can get them in tune, they won’t fall apart on you, and they sound pleasant)
problems i found - the chanter is loud, the reg reeds are plastic (altho they don’t sound THAT different from the NPU tapes), the reg tuning pins are only a couple inches long, they only reach the lowest hole, the reg keys have a wobble (are loose) and the springs have uneven resistence, and some of the pads leak.
i actually have mine to the point where i have only one leaky pad and i’ve evened out some of the spring tension. the regs seem to take alot of air though, and i don’t know that it’s just the leaky pad.
I was playing with the vol3 NPU tape and the guy’s pumping the bellows like i do without using the regs, only he’s laying on two of the keys for measures at a time. I can’t do that…I get about a quarter note out of the regs and then i have to close them off so i don’t deplete the bag enough to stop the drones, although it will stop the lower reg reeds first. Maybe it’s because the reeds are plastic they take more oomph to get going? I kinda like that they’re plastic because i don’t have to worry about them changing on me - once i’ve tuned it i can count on it…
Sounding pleasant is a relative term. The best sounding pipes around sound pleasant too, but they’re in a totally different class. It’s my opinion that the serious student shouldn’t be looking for a good/fast/cheap set of pipes. It can give the poorly educated student unwarranted nightmares from the beginning, and not offer a true perspective on the valid learning process. And, that can render his/her opinion meaningless about the instrument as it is intended to be.
No chanter is particularly loud. Bad reeds are loud. Even the largest bored chanters can be made to sound quieter than you might imagine. Tuning pins are not made to reach into the bore except to tie on another extension because even a pin that reaches the first hole can be pulled back so as not to affect the note. Remember, some of the best regs may not need rushed at all.
One leaky pad can give you inaccurate results of other nearby properly sealed notes. And, it can give you inaccurate results on the chanter because of the misapplied, or borrowed air that is being consumed.
Watching someone else pump the bellows may not tell the viewer much at all. There’s just too many details that seperate quality from arm-busting bellows and methods. The type of reeds matters, the total reeds being played matters, and the leaks matter, and on and on. There’s so much to learn. In 22 years your advice may, and probably will, be totally different, so until then, and if in doubt, listen to Ted. 
Hey Ryan,
We missed you for tunes last night. Had a great time - four pipers there as well. I do know of one gentleman here in town who has a Gallagher half set you may wish to think about in a few months. It’s a beautiful set.
Give me a call one of these days and we’ll get together and go over what you have. Days or evenings work most of the time.
Bri~
okay…just by way of clarification
Sounding pleasant=not sounding like the unaltered s***ty plastic reeded pipes that will give you a shudder
No chanter is particularly loud. Bad reeds are loud. = very true, and i don’t know that it is a bad reed, but tim’s style…i have his reedmaking video and the reed he produces and then plays in his own pipes sounds the same way…i don’t particulary care for it…
Even the largest bored chanters can be made to sound quieter than you might imagine. = i alleviated the above problem by rereeding it, but that was not something i was able to do for a long time…a beginner should expect to have to use tim’s reed or have it rereeded by another maker (not yet having learned to do it themself). the diameter is the same as my childress chanter which, with bruce’s reed, is quiet and dreamy…
some of the best regs may not need rushed at all. = these are most assuredly not the best regs, but they do get the job done and don’t chase people out of the room
One leaky pad can give you inaccurate results of other nearby properly sealed notes. = the leaky one is the F# on the tenor…being that it’s “south” of the rest of the keys I figure the effect of the small leak on the others is minimal (I am, however, trying to fix the leak…i’m reading up on how to pad flutes and the like - step one is to just try moving the pad a bit…judging by the impression on the pad I think that’ll do it)
And, it can give you inaccurate results on the chanter because of the misapplied, or borrowed air that is being consumed. = very true, which is why i’m not just letting it sit as is.
Watching someone else pump the bellows may not tell the viewer much at all. = very true…bellows size, bag size in addition to all the other things you mentioned. It just seems that I have to do more pumping than anybody else i’ve seen…maybe my bag is smaller, or the bellows, or the plastic reeds take more air &c &c&c…but i won’t be able to start eliminating possibilities until i can shore up the leak.
Something important to remember is that tim still puts in months (in my case, 5 or 6) of work on the rebuilding. he has a reputation (and a good one from what i’ve been able to find) to safeguard…he said when i placed the order that he doesn’t let anything out of his shop that he wouldn’t want his name associated with. having his rebuilt set as a first full set is hardly ordering from mideast or sharkinAM…
I can now play well with the chanter and drones and am doing a fair job on the regs with lower octave chanter notes, every once in awhile i hit a combo and say to myself “have to remember not to hit that with a “G” again”…i experiment when practicing at home, and use them conservatively when out. I am satisfied with my fairly systematic progress, whereas had I placed a full order at the time i placed the rebuild order i would still only have a practice set today, and for the next 6mos or so…i think of all i wouldn’t have gotten to do…
plus, being a starving grad student i would not have been able to place an order then due to $ anyway…rebuilt set was roughly half the best price i was able to find new or used. due to student teaching and whatnot in upcoming semesters, I would be initiating my two year wait about a year and a half from now at the earliest, which would have me on a practice set for almost five years that i will have had this full set by then…if i’ve come this far on the full set in a year (i’m not a wiz, but i’m happy with progress), how much farther will i be in four more?
i agree that if you have to fight your instrument you won’t learn very much, and what you do learn won’t be translated to better instruments, but just because it costs a little less, or takes less time doesn’t make it “bad”
after all…tim saves that time and money not having to do the woodwork, not having to do the mounting, not having to do the metalwork or soldering…he modifies what’s already been done to bring it up to spec, and he doesn’t let it out of his workshop until it is…
Just to give you an idea of how complex and mysterious everthing can be, esp with regulators…the precise distance from the lowest tonehole to the cork (the stopper that holds the tuning pin), has a profound effect on the tuning of the lowest note.
Here’s a trick question, and think of the reasoning in the answer. Push the cork in (or make a stick too short in this area)…will you flatten the lowest note, or sharpen it? The dynamics inside a reg is critical. Leaks can be frustrating, and BTW, a leaky F# on the tenor reg would cause the A,B,C above the note to go flat. But here’s the mystery: a leaky F# will cause the G above it to go sharp. And this principle is only true because F# is the lowest note, and G is the 2nd to lowest note. Leaks in the reed seat can cause mysterious and inaccurate results too, both chanter, regs, and drones.
X-referencing reed dimensions are meaningless when trying to explain tone and volume, or dreaminess. Density of the cane, origins of the cane, the type of scrape, thinness of the scrape, elevation of the arc, climate, age of the reed, pressure of the winding on the tails, length of tails, rate of taper on rolled staples or flair in tube staples, size and type of material of the bridle…these are just some of the subtle differences that produce the desired/undesired effect. And, there’s a dozen more.
What can you tell from all these reeds, just from looking, crowing, or measuring, etc.?
Reed maker’s note: Some examples of variations on the staple and head measurements. All the reeds play A 440 but have slight tonal and response differences.
Is it impossible that they would all work fine in the same chanter? Yes.
I’ve sat down with Tim B., one on one, and made reeds. There’s no two reeds alike, or that require the same tweaking or anything. And, plastic reeds are in a plastic world of their own, and don’t compare with cane in any sense of fairness.
Some of the best regs not needing rushed only means that tuning pins may be useless in some good regulators with good reeds…they’re not a standard overall application necessary to regs…you can’t determine anything from the length of the tuning pin.
okay…i think more meaning is being assigned to my initial comment
read as: “tim does good work. the rebuilt pipes have served me well in learning to play a full set. they are by no means the end-all-be-all, and I intend to place an order for the rest of the set to match my chanter from bruce as soon as I can afford to do so. this way, when they arrive I will already be able to play them.”
as far as your regulator question, if i had to guess, I would think it would flatten it. if i had to make that adjustment on my own (just like with my flute headpiece) i would move it one way and test the results…if it moved the pitch in the opposite direction i wanted, then i would readjust the cork…no biggie…
as far as reeds, the ones in the picture are one style i’ve seen (altho, i know each one of them is not only a different size but different in all respects. i would expect that if one worked in a chanter none of the others would). the OTHER style i’ve seen is the one that tim made and that I found in my original pakistani chanter. it has no bridle and shorter, more triangular blades with a uniform outer layer (hard to find the ‘scrape’…I may be wrong, but I think tim uses a smaller staple than bruce). i’ve found that the two styles, while different on an individual reed basis, do seem to exhibit some common qualities. I’ve found that the shorter, more triangular reed has more of a “bark” to it.
that was all I meant
ps - the description of regulator tuning pins in the book “woodwind instruments and their history” was what lead me to believe that they were supposed to extend the length of all the holes. I remembered that tim had complained that the tuning pins were less than wonderful but that there wasn’t a whole lot he could do about it, but it wouldn’t prevent them from functioning. i never did ask him in what way he didn’t like them, and when i read that passage I assumed that was what he must have meant.
don’t get me wrong…i’ve learned so much on this board (including regulator info in this thread)…I do consider it the second best thing i did for my piping (second to ordering my first real chanter)