Blowpipe aperture size?

Uilleann Pipes
1

Ok, so I have a half set with the traditional wood blowpipe stock on the bag. The one that has the tapered wood thingy which the blowpipe fits over. With this I actually use a piece of tubing that has a 3/4" inner diameter and just slides over the stock. The old blowpipe with the wood socket got broken a while ago.

I also have a bag that I use when I just don’t want to lug the half set around and use a practice set. That bag has the short stock that you’d use with a blowpipe that has the check valve attached. It has a tenon on either end, one just slides into the bellows outlet and the other slides into the bag inlet.

Both bags are different shapes, ages, and sizes but I can tell a difference when using the two different blowpipes. The one with the integrated check valve has a small aperature compared to the larger simple rubber tubing setup. The traditional bag stock has a smaller ID than this tubing, but larger than the newer one. The newer one seems to not allow as much a ir in as the simple rubber tubing/trad. stock, but on the other hand may be easier to control, or maybe not.

So, now that I’ve formed my question in a long-winded manner, can the experts here advise on which is more advantageous in the long run? They’re both fine to use to me, but I’m wondering if down the road I’ll find that one is better than the other. I know that these are designed the way they are for a reason. My setup with the rubber tubing and trad. stock deviates from the maker’s design (the wood socket had a smaller aperature. Or is it one of those things where as long as it works for me, I shouldn’t think about it too much? I always think too much…

I guess I should clarify why I’m asking. I’m getting ready to get a new bag for the half set and I’m trying to decide just to tie in the old stock and keep using that arrangement, or get one of the other type made so that I can use the same blowpipe.

2

WOW ! That was a complex word picture, my man !
It surpasses SOME of the writing I have done on this Forum.
NOW…for my very "long winded"and detailed…REPLY !
At the outset…would you agree, that it’s a given, that the most narrow point(s) in your “Bellows to Bag” pathway, LIMITS the amount of AIR getting to the interior of your BAG ? Well I do believe that the
efficiency of the whole system is getting enough AIR to the REEDS
and the PIPES they’re plugged into, then the SOUND flows out
to audience, in a most delightful manner (hopefully) !

My advice is get yourself a wood turner, to turn a new Blow-pipe and
Blow-pipe Stock. I have all the Blow-pipe Tenons on my sets,
(D, C, and Pastoral Pipes) fit into the Bellows Stock on my “Tayloreque”
Bellows AND my C set Bellows. That’s simple, now what follows maybe hard to follow without PICTURES, but if you’ve spent anytime looking at all the photos on this site…you may be able to “Put It Together”.

Now the Blow-pipe Stock, Blow-pipe and Bellows Stock, Plastic Tubing, and Bellows Nozzle dimensions, that I have on my C set (which also work on D-ees and B flats, natch !):
(1) Blow-pipe Stock Outside diameter O.d.= 1 and 1/8th inches
Internal diameter of the Bore, I.d.= 11/16ths inches.
Length of Blow-pipe Stock: 1 and 5/8ths inches. Brass ferrule 5/8ths
wide, on the end of the Stock that fits over the Blow-pipe.
Please note:
It helps to use a strong wood, my Blow-pipe Stock and Blow-pipe is made
from Ebony. Be sure and turn a tie-in groove, as you can use your untied
Old Stock, as a model for the groove OR, if the Old Stock has enough of an O.d. for the wood surrounding the Bore, it can be bored out to the 11/16ths I.d. without any weakening of your Old Stock.
(2) My Blow-pipe is 5 and 7/8ths inches in overall length.
The I.d. of the bore is 7/16ths of an inch, and is the narrowest
part of the air pathway.
The largest O.d. is the 2 shoulders at the ends of the 2 tenons
which is 7/8ths of an inch and there is a graceful curve between the 2
shoulders that dips to a narrow point in the center.
The O.d at that point is 3/4s of an inch (purely for aesthetics).
The 2 tenons on either end, have an O.d. of 21/32nds of an inch.
When the cotton thread wrap is added, the O.d. increases to 11/16ths
of an inch, which secures the Blow-pipe inside the Stock.
The length of the Tenon that carries the Check Valve leather, is
1 and 1/4 . The other Tenon end is 1 and 3/16ths in length, mainly so you can identify which end is which !
Now you can increase the Blow-pipe tenon O.d. or have extra wrapping, to fit securely in a clear plastic tubing (1" O.d. / 3/4" I.d.) from the bellows Nozzle, OR, you can have a Bellows Stock that does NOT deform into an oval shape through hours of playing, and possibly LEAK AIR.
(3) My Bellows Stock is made from solid brass (although wood is fine, and should have a metal ferrule on the end that fits over the Blow-pipe tenon).
The dimensions for my Bellows Stock is: 2 1/2 inches in length.
There is a Shoulder for the Tenon that fits into the clear plastic tubing,
going to the Bellows Nozzle. The length of this part is 1 inch.
The O.d. is 25/32nds on the Tenon, with a narrow lip at the end to hold the tubing, it is 1/16ths wide, and 13/16ths O.d. At the Blow-pipe end the O.d. is 7/8ths. The I.d. is 11/16ths to a depth of 1 and 7/32nds. The I.d. on the narrowest part of the bore of the Bellows Stock is 5/8ths of an inch, which is the basic bore I.d. of this Stock.
(4) The Plastic tubing is 5 inches in Length and fits over a Brass Nozzle on the Bellows.
I usually heat the Plastic tubing with hot water, so it expands easily over the Bellows Stock, and shrinks as it cools, into a tight fit. The end of the Plastic tube that goes on to the Bellows Nozzle, is secured by an 1" diameter Automotive Hose Clamp which is an adjustable metal band that is used for radiator and heater hoses.
(5) The Bellows Nozzle is made with 2 parts a Brass Tube and a Brass Plate, Silver Soldered together.
The Nozzle Brass TUBE is 3/4s O.d. and I.d. is 11/16ths. This Tube is set at an angle of 45 degrees, the long side is 1 and 5/8ths" and the short side is 1 and 1/4". The Brass Plate is 1/16th" thick and is a rectangle measuring 1 and 3/4" BY 1 and 1/4".
There are 4 Brass Screws that hold the Nozzle Plate to the wood on the inside Cheek of the Bellows, and there is a leather gasket glued to the underside of the Plate that seals the base of this Nozzle to the INSIDE CHEEK of the BELLOWS. To finish, the leather Gasket is glued to the wood as the Brass Screws are tightened Down.
Note: the Air Hole in the Bellows Cheek, should be close to the same Diameter as the tube of the Nozzle, in this case, 5/8ths of an inch.
I believe in LOW RESISTANCE in the air pathway, and these dimensions
were derived, through my years of Piping experience.
I also believe in Bigger Bags and Bellows too, but that’s a subject for
another day ! Good luck my fellow Piper !
Sean Folsom

3

Yep

4

AUSDAG <LACONIC COMMENT.

I didn’t see anybody else coming on with help
for this Piper !
Sean “IF” Folsom

5

Thanks Sean! Your setup actually (I think) sounds close to the jerry-rigged setup on the older bag that I came up with. Now that you mention it, it does seem like there’s more resistance with the newer one. I can fill the bag fine, but it takes more elbow grease. I just wasn’t sure if some considered that a not so bad thing, I’ve gotten used to it now (it requires a different amount of easing off on the bag) but with the other setup, it seems so easy to keep the drones stable and chanter pitch spot-on, much easier to adjust bag pressure appropriately when filling the bag.

6

Sean an Piobaire: I was just so impressed with your contribution, I was left, well, speechless. :smiley:

7

So “meemtp” you’re welcome, entirely !
Now with a bigger Bellows and Bag, the whole set will blow a lot MORE easy,
and if over half of your artistic talent just goes on making the
Pipes sound, let alone playing anything on them…(I used to tell people that as a beginner, the effort to sound the things was at least 60 per cent
of my artistic talent, well, it has declined to a mere 50 per cent sometime since). This fashion for low resistance blow-pipes, has happened recently, to the GHBs, and rapidly replaced those old, narrow “Soda Straw” blow-pipes.
Causing less “Cheek Puff Out” amongst Scots Pipers.
There is always resistance (sic) to that fashion be extended to the Irish Pipes.
Now Mr.AUSDAG you at a loss for words…I never suspected that you were
ever at a loss for words !
Sean Low Resist Folsom

8

Only when I’m clearly out-performed by those in positions of greater authority, which is most of the time actually :laughing:

9

Hi Sean

Thanks for taking the time to post the details. I agree about airflow, except I am not sure a bigger bellows/bag is helpful for everyone. I’ve seen learners with large bags, in particular, who immediately did better with a smaller bag, finding the small bag easier to play. I reckon every person has to find out their own preferences, but I’d advise a learner to avoid extremes of bag or bellows size when starting out.

ATB

Bill

10

It’s OK Ausdag / David, we all have our strengths and weaknesses…
I have big holes in my education due to being an autodidact !

Thanks Billh for wading in on this, AND YES I agree that a big bag can be hard to handle, but the Bellows…The following is my story about Bellows Size…
When I showed up on Matt Keirnan’s doorstep in Cabra,
Dublin (Feb.1973) with my newly purchased Northumbrian Pipes.
I played them for Matt with my diminutive Geordie Bellows, just as Matt was finishing up one of his large tacked Bellows, and I couldn’t help commenting on the size of his Bellows, versus my tiny blower…
So Matt told me in no uncertain terms, that he had been around Irish Pipers who worked up a Sweat, winding their Pipes in Winter. They would then go outdoors, into the Rain or Snow, but mainly COLD, CHILL AIR, walk, or worse, CYCLE home, and the next news Matt would hear of them was, that they contracted PNEUMONIA and DIED !
Matt said that he made large Bellows so the Pipers he supplied would never break out in a sweat, Winter, or Summer !
I then tried Matt’s half set, with his Bellows, and I had to agree with him, that it was easy to play, which confirmed Matt’s contentions to his, and my satisfaction.
I later wound up playing a Kennedy Set, with a moderate sized Bellows, then, in Sept. 1973, then I got the Tayloresque set, in April 1976. Regardless of who made this set, it came with a Very Large Bellows !
The dimensions of the parts that I gave at the start of this string, were partly made for me by Michael Hubert (the Blow-pipe, and the Bellows Stock, and the Bellows Nozzle, circa mid 1990s) to give Michael his due credit !
I thanked Michael profusely, for making my C set a whole lot easier to play, and interchangeable bit with both Bellows (for the D set and the C set).This feature, makes for good “on stage” transitions, as you only buckle on ONE Bellows to start with, and I play in this order:
The Pastoral Pipes, copy after Hugh Robertson, 1780. C set circa 1830, and then the Tayloresque D set, circa 1890. This progression, shows the Irish Pipes’ “Sound Evolution”, without Too Much Blabbing !
Sean (evolving) Folsom

11

Sean (or anyone else), out of curiosity, what size would you consider large for bellows. As far as liter per stroke size etc.? I’m curious as to how the two sets of bellows I have stack up.

12

Hello Meem !
I don’t have the Rubber tubing and the Milliliter graduated test tube, with the ,piston inside it, so I could find out what the cubic amount of air my
Bellows gives out, in one complete stroke.
Maybe, in the future, I’ll visit a laboratory, with these “low-tech” pieces of equipment, and plug my bellows into such a set up, but for now, all I can do is give you the Bellows dimensions and the links to the photos of my 2
Irish Pipes, so you can have a more complete idea of the size of my C set Bellows and my “Tayloresque” Bellows, which has these Measurements:
Overall length: 11" Widest width between 2 points of the wooden
“pan shape”, 6 1/8".
The actual thread / sewing line width between these same points, 5 7/8".
Width of the “Nose” of the Bellows, 2 3/8".
Maximum distance of the “THROW” of the Bellows, when drawn out
to the greatest extent of the Leather, is 8 inches.
The Bellows Nozzle has a Brass tube, 25/32" I.d.
The Length of the Long side 2 5/8", the Short side is 1 7/8".
This Brass tube is Silver soldered to an Oval-shaped Brass
Plate. The Long axis is 2 5/8", and the Short axis is, 2 3/8".
The Inlet Valve for the Bellows is 1 1/2" in Diameter.
The Bellows Leather has two layers of Cow-Hide which had to be replaced, and sewn on to the Bellows boards, using the original Leather as a pattern.
It took me 3 months of intense labor, for the first part of the restoration of the set, in April, May, and June of 1976. At the end of this time, I had EVERY PART disassembled, and reassembled, soldered, cleaned, polished, with new Cotton Thread wrap on the Tenons, and the Regulators repadded.
It had a new Bag and Bag Cover, new Leather Straps, 3 new Check valves. I made ALL NEW REEDS, except for the Baritone Drone, which had an Elder drone reed, that played on for many years, before replacement.
The links address at Oliver Seeler’s site is:
http://www.hotpipes.com/pipe0022.html for my “Tayloresque” D set,

and the 1979 Alan Ginsberg C set is at:

http://www.hotpipes.com/pipe0011.html

This is an old photo of my C set. Five years ago, I had Brad Angus put on 4 keys on the Chanter, and a new wood Chanter top, with a “S” curve brass air tube, and a Stop Key. The Chanter now looks more, dare I say it…Seamus “Ennis-esk”
Have fun with all this, David, billh, and meemtp !
Sean Folsom

13

sean,

this is off topic, but I first saw you (we never met) in SF at the 2001 tionol. you gave such a brilliant and entertaining piping demo that i never forgot your name. you have been a consistantly great source of information so you are!

all the best

k. pádraig o’kaine

14

Sean

As Billh says its advisable for a beginner notto have a smaller bag, or one that will fit the size of the person, about four cubis litres is big
enough, IE.

A bag should fit neatly under the arm of the said person so they can encompass the bag without it trying to fall of from undereath their grip
when at its fullest, a measurement from the arm pit to the elbow joint is a good guide.

For the apeture of the outlet, try using a bellows outlet of 5/8" and 3/8" at the blowpipe end, this enables the air to travel down in a regulated manner, rather than being able to come out quickly all at once as the bellows are squeezed, which if present does make bellows to bag control a little trickier.

15

Thanks for the kind words Padraig, I’m glad you liked my “Show” !
Thanks Davy for getting in on this…great stuff !
My story (not again-hoo-boy)…
In 1973, I started out on Irish Pipes in California, by meeting Denis Brooks, who showed me his low arm position, with his left elbow just back of the Bass regulator bar, to control the bag pressure. Denis is a big man and has longer arms than me, so it worked for him very well.
I have to say that Denis looked so relaxed while playing, that I decided to adopt this “manner of squeeze” , as well.
Next, in order of my meetings with “The Five” SF bay area Pipers,
I visited the home of the Cotter Brothers (Pat [RIP] and Dan) in San Francisco.
They did the Bag-deep-in-the-armpit position (like I was taught on the Northumbrian Small Pipes) for Bag control, I asked them where they learned that technique, and it was from their teacher, Paddy O’Neill, who was the 4th Piper I met in San Francisco, that year. The 5th Piper was Dan Sullivan, who also had Paddy as his teacher (Paddy and Dan both had begun Piping on GHBs in Ireland, before they got to the USA).
Are you Pipers still with me on this ? Goody !
So 1975… I go back to Ireland and meet Paddy Keenan, and he was already starting to rest his arm on TOP OF THE BAG, due to Bursitis in his Left Shoulder.
He had the Main Stock cut low in the Bag and the Blow-pipe is
directly on the same horizontal line, IN BACK OF the Main Stock.
The Drones and Regs sit FLAT on his Knees, so he can hit those chords
SO EASY…Paddy’s another Big man with long arms…Geez !
He keeps the Bag REALLY FULL with his Bellows, and when he wants to go
into the 2nd Octave he just gives another PUSH on his Bellows, and up
the Chanter goes. I played his set, and had trouble getting DOWN to the 1st Octave on his Chanter, the 1st and only time I just stayed “On High” !
I had to RELAX in order to drop to the 1st octave.
I mention all of this story as all these Pipe set-ups can be “Taylored” ( I can’t resist…) so bad, that the beginner NEVER feels comfortable.
Most Pipers never meet their (Pipe) Makers, so they ADAPT to the set,
whatever it’s faults, and as they gain experience (meeting other Pipers)
and finally make the modifications for a better fit, by themselves.
All this is, to be sure, a subject you’re very familiar with
Davy, So Please…Write Some More On This String !
Sean Folsom

16

Hi Sean

Using the bag pressure to jump up to the second octave is not what I would recommend to a beginner, because they tend to start relly upon this to play normally, Ok for a seasoned player like Paddy, who knows the ropes.

An arm position on the bag is very important, the smaller the area on the bag one uses to control pressure the more sensitive that control needs to be, if one uses a wider area say in the front to center of the bag you will have more time to control things, if the bag is too big to fit under the arm comfortably the harder it can be, some bags I have seen are big enough to blow up a lilo in a onner.

I advise the beginner to try and keep the bag as full as possible when playing because if one lets the bag deflate too much say about less than half its capacity, you loose the overall control, the closer your arm is to the side of your body the less strength you have, the further away from your body within reason the more power you can produce, it also takes more pumps to establish a working pressure again if you forget to pump thing up, which then conflicts with bellows to bag timing, once you have learned how thing should be, it becomes second nature and you forget all about timing etc.

One other senario I have witnessed is, players who own only a single bag,normally with a concert chanter, who then go on to purchase other chanters, IE C and B etc, start to struggle when the longer chanters are used on the same bag as their concert stick, this is when things can start to get difficult, a concert bag normally has a neck which is far too short for anything else, which will upset the nice balance that one has grown used to.

If you cannot meet your pipe maker, you should give them all your statistics, height for bag neck size, girth for the blowpipe length, inner arm measurement for the size of bag to fit you.

I find a 4-1 ratio, four pumps of the bellows to completely fill an empty bag works well, and one with as sausage shaped when full also works well, there is a happy medium which I was shown, it will fit 90% of folks barring the smallest and tallest.

Bigger is not always better, no pun intended, everything should fit correctly, also sit at the correct height to play and learn to rub your head whilst patting your belly.

And last but not least, your bellows should start to pump immediately when they are closed, if not your wasting valuable energy and air, especially when your playing a full set and the reeds start using a little more air because of climate changes, also check your bag and bellows for leaks, because these can creep up on you gradually without being noticed, a small leak can be compensated for which can grow, and before you know it, you can have a 6-1 or larger ratio.

Please excuse any spelling mistakes I’m only a begginer.


DDS :wink: .