Cutting through the FS propaganda…anyone like to advise on what I have here by way of a non standard Bb simple system Hawkes flute? The body has not been cut back as originally thought, no logo above the makers name. The length is about the same, top hole 1.5 cm above the standard High Pitched flute, otherwise the rest line up. All key work/furniture identical to the known standard flute. Mouthpiece has a longer tuning barrel, thus bringing the blow hole upwards 1cm from the other. On mouthpiece and main body it has been stamped in old font P 440. The flute does not match up to a Low Pitched Bb either.
Um, Neil, I don’t think you’re going to get much response to this (even posted 4 times!) without some photos so that we have some idea what you’re on about!
LoL Yes Jem very observant…posted on the second asking the moderator to remove the three repeats. Problems getting one on and ended up with as you noted. I’ve had a pal say he’d post pics for me so will be back later, I really thought the P 440 would have clinched it?
P 440 what? Could be to do with reference pitch, but not necessarily. Out of context pretty meaningless. I don’t as yet understand at all what you’re on about, Neil, bar it’s a Hawkes Bb band flute???
Pics to follow later…yes it is a Hawkes Crown AZ “band” flute. But does not fit in with the known family, although all the furniture is identical. So wondered, could it be a prototype or a one off for a bandsman who would rather play simple system instead of Boehm and be in tune? The P 440 can only mean the pitch. Having x3 pairs of eyes look at the Regd No. it appears to be 381469/18 which may lead on, not many bore these Regd numbers and of course to find another may prove improbable. No idea how to get into the WWW to see if there are any records maybe some PC wizard can?
Can’t tell much from photos Neil, my self? Happy to host clearer / better photos.
If it plays just test pitch via tuner. There must be an online tuner . I use phone apps/ and am trying RTTA now.
Is the Barrell faded ebonite and the rest cocus?
Take Care,
Pat
Pics on the way Pat…yes the small barrel is made from Ebonite, usual requests by the discerning, just love the way it fades and comes good with handling, the body & mouthpiece as you noted is a lovely piece of Cocus by the looks of it, usually African Blackwood… so again may have been a special? Thanks for the interest shown, why has Jem not chinned you for the post duplication? LoL
Thanks Pat, the top pic is showing the middle flute (one in Q) against an Army low Pitch bb and bottom is the normal H Crown AZ bb you can see the positioning hopefully? 2nd pic showing the off set finger flange to the right not the normal left side. 3rd pic the logo or lack of on the top flute body just not enough room above the top hole. 4th pic Top flute shows the difference in length. So the P440 and the Regd Number might be the answer, reading often on here about the pitches had hope for clarification as these AZ band flutes are always in high pitch?
Neil, what pitch or hertz does the new one play at? It certainly looks like the flute is deliberately scaled longer. Besides the longer barrel, and position of the top finger hole, there is slightly greater distance between the other holes (with corresponding key & pad placement), also. I’m guessing it’s not a Bb flute at all. C or lower at modern pitch? The touch for the lowest key is probably offset differently to aid the reach.
Need to re-pad 1st flute ever to have none or remnants, springs ok so a bonus but all on the list Kevin. Yes the D# key offset is as the teo piccolos the F piccolo being smaller was to the right for room. Yes all scaled longer and deliberate I am of the opinion this was made for a bandsman who wished to play along with those large concert flutes but couldn’t get used to playing the Boehm system…there’s a few of us about. Below is a report I made,
See report…I’m at a loss over this one at the mo’ will take some working out I fear?
Mouthpiece top has crown button, makers name clear as a bell and marked with a # 5008 which matches the small barrel & is of the old font style not modern. Also stamped extra is P 440 which means HP or LP uncertain at this time?
The small barrel is in ebonite same # 5008 and under A.Z is some fine stamping not clear yet maybe patented No. and then something I’ve not seen before? The slide is seized on as per usual, but unusually longer than the norm at 2 Inches this is 2 & 5/16” (Factory made)
The body has not been cut back the makers name is there but no A.Z no tampering with the tenon joint either…but the holes do not match up against another the top hole to centre from joint is 1 & 1/8” instead of 1 & 1/2”…3/8” difference. When married up it then lines up almost with the standard flute. The body has P 440 stamped on it under the joint opposite the H&S London and again the # 5008 all in old font style. top mouthpiece & body identical colouring and grain no cracks.
Not a pad to be found but springs intact and the screw heads look unturned, but will oil for a few days before turning. The Bb key looks to be raised to suit the player not uncommon some times the small F Nat has been filed to allow more room & the D# bent left. Sounding the both assembled on C# they are in tune. The pad cups are large and the joint goes to the end of the cup including the D# cup. An enigma if ever there was one…for just now?
Neil great little flutes. I agree that this was probably a special one off. I’ve only seen the off-set D# key like that on the Piccolos.Are you refurbishing them? I am waiting on the return of my Miller Wicks Bb after having it converted to covered hole and silver plated.
Answering in two parts Stu, firstly…I’m confused is the flute shown the converted to ACH I seen under but not now, there was mention of a x4 keyed D flute from P Worral? Seems an extreme exercise on the conversion, having seen a few x4 keyed Bb upgraded to x5 adding the C Nat key.
2nd part…Here is an extract from an ex military fellow note the mention of a Flute D’Amour in A? I have read a couple of times Jem has mentioned this expression, so unsure in it’s translation?..
Very interesting! I have been comparing Bb holes to tin whistles and I think your flute there is a different pitch all together. Is it a Flute D’Amour in A? I would almost certainly think it is a prototype as H&S normally took more care over their famous trademarked logo and on your ‘special’ flute it is almost certainly not best quality stamping - even in spite of the awkward location. Just good enough to ensure a prototype had their name on, but not sale quality?
To clarify for you… (I hope).
“flûte d’amour”/“flauto d’amore”/“liebesflöte” all translate as “flute of love”. The term would never be applied to a treble (fife) range instrument such as a “melody” Bb band-flute (by any name). It refers to what you, Neil, would call a “Bb bass”, or indeed a “B bass”. They were pitched either a minor or major third below the concert flute in D, so in B or Bb. My R&R low Bb was termed by the firm themselves “flute d’amour/tenor flute”. Then you get the pitch naming problem coming into play, so in transposition terms the B flûte d’amour is “in A”, the Bb one in “Ab”, etc. To add to the confusion, you can find rare Böhm flutes a tone lower than the concert flute which orchestral types refer to as “in Bb” but we’d say they were in C! You always have to find out which terminology a speaker or writer is using. Whatever the chap you quote was on about, it wasn’t a small flute pitched anywhere above a concert flute.
Merci Jem 
He only took a stab as what it may be, not confirming as such. As for the misnaming I had cause to get onto the Dayton Miller collection, in there, there is a Hawkes AZ Eb piccolo noted…now having discovered that the offset D# (yes it is:-) key is as per the F piccolo to the right, now pondering did they make a mistake or…using what the misterming would produce?
DCM consistently use the “modern” transposition pitch naming system. So yes, if they say “in Eb” it’s in F in our terms/its native diatonic tonality.
Thanks for the confirmation Jem only for the D# key would I have not seen it as what I was hunting for, due to the naming. These little “band flutes”
cause a lot of stress I find LoL
To illustrate the point, here’s a CAZ Bb treble in the DCM. You can confirm what we would say it really is as opposed to what they call it from the measurements. But at least they are consistent in their misleading usage. 
http://www.loc.gov/item/dcm000466
Ta…interestingly the Regd No. there is the same as on this longer barrel I would have thought they would be different? There is another No. later noted on flutes & am assuming this was for the change of logo 294309