Our Country Has Gone Crazy

Whistle
81

Aaron,
thank you for your great post. It is a wonderful contribution to this discussion whether one agrees or not, I think.

Since we are recommending books (and this goes back to my very first post in this thread): All Quiet on the Western Front, by Erich Maria Remarque. (It’s available on amazon.com for $7.00)

The book tells the story of 18-year old Paul Baumer and his friends, German youths in WWI, who, inspired by the patriotic speeches of their teacher, enlist and are sent to the Western front. They are motivated by high patriotic ideals and land in the horrors of trench warfare. They die one by one, and Baumer, when he returns home on sick leave years later, hears his old teacher preaching the same patriotic gospel, but this time to 14-year old boys. It is almost a relief to Baumer to return to the front from hearing all the arguments and parols of patriotism that now sound false to him. The book is a classic, of course: the classic 20th-century exploration of the discrepencies between the ideal and rhetoric of patriotism and the reality and meaning of war.

82

Why, thank you. It’s been on my mind a lot, these days. I enjoy reading all of these opinions.

Since we are recommending books (and this goes back to my very first post in this thread): All Quiet on the Western Front, by Erich Maria Remarque. (It’s available on amazon.com for $7.00)

Yes!

I read this in high school and in university. In high school, I had nightmares for weeks. Those horses. . .ack. Horrifying.

83

Speaking of the trenches…
Bill Hyde

Southern Baptist Missionary to Western Pacific
(Appointed October l978)

Born:
Feb. 3, l944, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Education:
Attended Upper Iowa University, Fayette. Received the bachelor of music and master of arts degrees from University of Iowa, Iowa City and the master of divinity degree from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. Attended Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary in Mill Valley, Calif.

Married:
Lyn Gage, born in Estherville, Iowa.

Children:
Two grown sons.

Pre-missionary experience:
U.S. Army. Music teacher in Barnum and Eldora,Iowa, and Klamath Falls, Ore.; summer missionary to Alaska; and managed and directed a Baptist camp in Eldora, Iowa, while teaching in the same city.

Current assignment:
Church and leadership development in the Philippines.

Hobbies/special skills used in work and witness:
Provides a computer and teaches computer skills to theology students, pastors and Bible women for writing and printing of materials they use in their studies, ministry and in their churches.

**No place beyond God's Spirit -- or Bill Hyde's truck**
By Erich Bridges
\
\
RICHMOND, Va. (BP)--Bill Hyde was known for driving to the airport to welcome arriving missionaries. He was even better-known for driving Filipino pastors into the countryside to start churches.

Both activities involved the veteran Southern Baptist missionary's truck -- and his servant's heart.

He was at the airport in Davao City, the Philippines, to meet a returning missionary family March 4 when a powerful bomb exploded. The bomb, allegedly planted by terrorists, injured more than 140, including three members of the missionary family. It killed at least 21, including Hyde.

Hyde, 59, of Iowa, was the fourth Southern Baptist worker to die violently in the last three months. Medical workers Martha Myers, Bill Koehn and Kathy Gariety were killed by a Muslim extremist in Yemen Dec. 30.

Some will focus on their tragic deaths -- and the increasing threats to American Christians abroad -- and neglect the lives these workers lived. That's a shame, because Hyde's life, like the Yemen workers' lives, should be celebrated -- and imitated.

"Bill was involved in church planting movements before we knew what to call them," remembers Linda Phelps, a former missionary to the Philippines who now directs the children's school at Southern Baptists' Missionary Learning Center. "He was so passionate about church planting in the Philippines and mobilizing Filipinos to do it."

Hyde's 25-year missionary career included seminary teaching and a variety of other assignments. But he loved nothing so much as helping Filipino believers spread the gospel.

"Bill went out to the hard-to-reach places to train Filipinos to start churches," says former missionary Don Phelps (Linda's husband), now missions minister at Grove Avenue Baptist Church in Richmond, Va. "There was no place that was beyond the reach of God's Spirit -- and Bill's truck. He would load it up with Filipino pastors and lay leaders and take them out to start churches in tribal and rural areas. There were hundreds of churches planted."

Hyde's two priorities, Phelps adds, were Filipinos coming to know Christ and then taking the Great Commission as their personal responsibility:

"God multiplied church plants because of Bill's passion for the Filipinos to reach their own people and start churches. He was very humble about it. He was behind the scenes. He did not seek credit, but he was very faithful to do the things he knew God wanted him to do, and trust ministry to the Filipinos."

That's not just solid mission strategy. It's servanthood. Someone said that God does not judge greatness by how many people serve you, but by how many people you serve.

By that measure, Bill Hyde achieved greatness.
84

And the point is… ?

85

if i mistake me not, the point is that he’s the guy who was blown to bits (along with 17 or 18 presumably rich war mongering christian filipinos) by some guy who didn’t share your or herbivore12’s scruples.

i would like to be clear–i agree with herbivore12. war is bad, not just for what it does to those who die, but also for what it does to those who live. but sometimes it can’t be avoided. interestingly, people who kill in legitimate self defense against predatory creeps share some of the same emotions as soldiers.

for some reason americans are very resistant to recognizing cultural differences–that’s part of our national arrogance i suppose: everyone is either like us or wants to be like us. the fact is, while we may all share a common human nature, there is a certain amount of variation. some cultures glorify bloodlust and predatory behavior, and feel no particular remorse. others feel no ethical obligation to non-group people: think of the way the japanese treated the chinese and other asians in world war ii. there’s no escaping sad necessity in this world, and it’s best to be prepared. and the way technology has developed we can’t isolate ourselves from history.

86

There was a thread a couple of weeks ago ‘OT: Rolling Protest,’
which covered some of the same ground but more
straightforwardly. There were some arguments in
support of American policy worth reading, if I may say so,
by myself and others. Very good discussion–one
of the best we’ve ever had, I think. Encourage
people to read it. Best

87

I don’t like the idea of someone being asked to leave because of a shirt like that, and I give the lawyer praise for standing up for himself.

However, the last thing I would want in my mall is an anti capitalist type trying to start up trouble. The management might have had problems in the past with “peaceful” demonstrators. The demonstrating type aren’t usually good for business.

I used to be an anti republican peacenik, I voted for clinton in 92, then I got out into the real world and opened my eyes to how the world works. It’s not full of warm fuzzies who will be nice to you if you are nice to them. Sometimes a bully needs a punch in the nose to know you won’t be triffled with.

Oh, and by the way, the Bush administration will be gone soon enough, that is true… in about 6 years. :roll:

Let it be known that I only called myself names in the above post. :stuck_out_tongue:

88

edit

89

Mark Twain also said “The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice–and always has been” and you are beginning me convince me that he is right, if your “love” for your country needs to be built on the disdain for another.

That is the whole problem: You are hollering “My Country! Right or Wrong!” and to add your precious principles as a supposed reason doesn’t much help as you are using your patriotism to go back on those principles. And do you realize that those principles were formulated in France by the French?

Again you miss my point and now your assuming you know my principles which I don’t think you do. My love of this country is not based on hatred of another. I have not heard anyone including myself espousing their Christian beliefs as a reason to end Saddam’s reign. If you don’t like the dictionaries definition of patriot than just say so.

I should have added a :laughing: to the french comment. I was joking but my point was that IMHO a patriot simply reflects the country he supports. Is all patriotism evil? So no one should love, support, or defend their countries?

Is a patriot a coward? I don’t agree with Twain..it just doesn’t make sense especially if giving up ones life for another would be considered the ultimate act of patriotism. Has anyone heard of that recent story about the Russian trainer jumping on a mine to save the lives of some raw recruits he was training? That guys a hero in my book.

I won’t do you the disservice of assuming what your definition is but I guess my own opinion is that patriots don’t simply claim “My Country Right or Wrong”. If the U.S. government does something I disagree with I would no longer be a patriot by the definition I gave because I couldn’t support it. But as someone else posted here what is it that people support that makes them patriots? Is it the constitution? Is it the people? Is it the government? I think in this conversation it’s wrong to over-complicate the definition of a patriot as a “useful idiot” blindly doing what ever his country wants. An individual patriot today may be a rebel tomorrow.

Why do we call the folks who rebelled against King George patriots? Certainly, George did not consider them patriots. I think it’s because this country was formed by their values, principles and eventually their constitution. They were fighting for a country that did not yet exists.

Any way the first definition I offered was simple and I am amazed it caused such a reaction. I personally don’t know anyone I consider a patriot who blindy states “My Country Right or Wrong”. But you feel free to stereotype those who support the current governments stance any way it makes you feel comfortable.

Talking to a friend of mine from the Netherlands (NOT Holland! :slight_smile: ) It seems patriotism is totally politically incorrect over in Europe. It’s like a dirty word. I think it frightens Europeans but it’s something most Americans don’t fear maybe because our definitions differ and blind allegiance just isn’t part of it. Americans (me and native friends I have discussed this with) just don’t look at it as something evil. Maybe because most Americans whatever the ideology question their government. Maybe that’s why Chris seemed concerned that he is considered patriotic even though he isn’t supportive of this government. I don’t think he is entirely wrong either. Chris is patriotic to the principles behind this Nation one of which is free speech. I just don’t think it’s wrong to question the patriotism of folks who despise this administration whose trying to protect us and I don’t think they are traitors either. The definition didn’t say Love or Support or Defend. A patriot loves, supports and defends his country by definition. I would never question Chris’s love or dedication to this country. I just don’t see the folks I mentioned in my previous post as patriotic cause I don’t really see those who are blindly anti-war willing to really defend it.

Another misnomer is that patriots love war. I think a true patriot hates war but loves what he defends and if called to action will serve. I don’t think anyone here who supports ousting Saddam loves the idea of war. It’s a last resort even to Bush. But 14 ignored mandates and 12 years later we are creeping toward the end for Saddam.

My take on the anti-Bush, anti-American attitude is that it’s just a very easy position to be in. If we do nothing and get attacked it’s America’s fault. If we go in and take care of it, it’s still our fault. Since were damned if we do and don’t we might as well do and protect ourselves. Sitting around licking our wounds everytime we get hurt isn’t going to make anyone love us. For some reason I don’t think Syria is going to be very responsive if we go to them claiming our human rights are being violated everytime we get attacked by terrorists.

In the past I have enjoyed discussing things with you Bloom but today you’ve ignored what I have said and used it as an opportunity to disparage Christians. I sense some real anger and I don’t care to discuss this further. As Jim said this has been discussed previously and if your interested check out the thread he mentions.

p.s.
“My Country Right or Wrong”…great song by Midnight Oil…one of my favorite bands.

90

CraigMC
I may be wrong but what most Europeans see what many American call patriotism as nationalism .
That is what kept Europe at each others throats and killed millions of people in the last centuries. They realize the danger of a population allowing themselves to being fanned to a frenzy.
The Europeans have seen it and have died because of it. We must not forget the lesson taught by history or we are to repeat them.

91

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war’s desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust.”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Given these words and considering that our country face a terrible calamity in Sep.11, 2001. Considering the Osama Bin Laden has name Saddam Hussein as a co-conspirator. Considering that a rich oil man from
a far away country is using his wealth to carry out horrific murderous actions upon minority groups in his country, has created biological weapons, has attempted to create nuclear weapons (much of this has suppressed from American News sources - he may actually have them). He has clearly lied over and over. And to top it all off, he thinks he’s a reincarnation of the Bablyonlian King Nebuchadnezzar.

My comment is “Lock and Load”. Those high purity aluminum tubes he’s buying are not being purchased to make whistles!

92

CraigMC
I may be wrong but what most Europeans see what many American call patriotism as nationalism .
That is what kept Europe at each others throats and killed millions of people in the last centuries. They realize the danger of a population allowing themselves to being fanned to a frenzy.
The Europeans have seen it and have died because of it. We must not forget the lesson taught by history or we are to repeat them.

Ok well that makes sense. I will admit this administration has been culturally inept but I don’t see the Europeans taking our culture into account either.

I think the Nationalism that people are frightened of is based on race and that just simply couldn’t happen in such a culturally diverse place like the U.S. The last three wars/conficts where American blood was shed was inorder to save and protect Muslims. The Gulf war, Somalia, and Bosnia. So it’s not a religious thing either as has been suggested.

93

That reminds me, we really need to go the extra effort to make Muslims living in this country who love this country and are being model citizens to feel at home. It’s not easy to do in this time - but it’s the right thing to do.

Remember, for every one of us making this positive attempt - how many people are alienating them.

94

Agreed. Of course, there were also some arguments against the American policy worth reading. :wink:

95

Sorry for having stupidly taken litterally, what you meant tongue-in-cheek you red-neck lynch-mob tory.

Curiously though I must have overlooked all those posts where you admonished the much stronger bashing of conservatives and Christians…

Bashing of conservatives? If generally, then I’d be bashing my own head pretty often… Christians-bashing? There again, if meant generally, you surprise me. Or was it my saying once crusades and inquisition were a wrong thing? BTW the Pope seems to be of a similar opinion to mine on some issues, these days. Not that it will convert me to papism… I just advocate distrust to any government claiming it is acting in the name of God, whether it takes the form of Gott-mit-uns, Ayatollahs’ regime, armed Crusades as well as Djihads, Serbian Orthodoxy, your current Prez… or Jeanne of Arc. But the most recent, the worse to me. Is all.

96

Start from it, and at these prices get the whole works of E-M Remarque.
His Black Obelisk has tremendous insights about the build-up of racism in an economic crisis context, all this through black humour glasses…
and, well, nothing to throw away of his works.

97

edit

98

Hi, Andreas, I didn’t mean to slight either side of
the debate as expressed in the last
thread–only I didn’t feel the pro-administration side
was done justice in this (rather confused) one.
It’s easier to argue
that war sucks and ought to be avoided
than it is to argue that
it’s worth risking under these particular
circumstances–I suppose that’s
as it should be. Just want
folks to see what a thread like
this is like when it works. Best, Jim

99

edit

100

Hi Cranberry, I think you’ll see if you read OT: Rolling Protest.
Best, Jim