Cool, Chris! I’m looking forward to reading it! Good luck with language class! 
edit
This just in:
“The latest polls show that a big majority of whistlers worldwide think the US Government has gone crazy”.
Seriously, whether the actions of the security guards were legal or not is not as interesting as why they did it: The man was told to leave for a reason, that reason being that he advocated peace. Now, that’s interesting!
A question I’d like to ask is this: Is the US heading towards pre-WW2 fascism, or merely towards post-WW2 McCarthy’ism? Opinions invited.
Jens
The worse may be that these news broke out because the man involved was a prominent lawyer.
Now how many others risk the same–one year in prison!–and won’t even be able to afford a decent lawyer, not mentioning getting the incident publicly exposed?
What’s next in shopping malls? “No dogs, no frogs” ?
The report doesn’t say that the only reason he was asked to leave was his wearing of the shirt. Maybe he was deliberately getting in the face of other people in the mall. If I had been asked to leave merely because of a “peace” shirt, I would have left, never to return, prominently displaying a certain upraised finger of my right hand during my exodus. However, if I were intent on making a statement to the world, I would have allowed myself to be arrested and hope that Reuters would pick up on it.
it’s not clear to me that being anti-war equates with being pro-peace, or vice versa. i do think peace must be defended at times–i think history is pretty clear on that. i do think there are people of evil intent out there–i think history is pretty clear on that, too. i know this is just people mouthing off at their keyboards, which doesn’t require much courage when (like me) you use an alias, but it does disturb me a little to see so many stereotypes (“rich war mongering christians” “wacko liberals”) and so little nuance.
but to return to my other point: did i take a wrong turn somewhere? i thought this was a whistle forum. i live for truth, or i wouldn’t have put “gadfly” in my profile, but i don’t actually go looking for opportunities to get in peoples faces, simply because that’s not usually a very effective way to change minds. has to be done sometimes, i know, but maybe a whistle forum isn’t the right place.
ok, call me a spoilsport.
When I joined the US Navy in 1977 I took an oath. As everyone here who’s served in the US military knows the oath is to defend the Constitution. It is not to defend a political party nor a special interest.
It is not to defend a piece of paper but the ideals written therein. I am a non-partisan Christian and a patriot but I would defend your right to be a Moslem or any other religion. I would defend your right to protest against the government. I would defend your right to be a communist or even a member of the KKK. I may not agree with all of these things but they are rights bestowed by that document, created by some of the greatest political thinkers in history.
And I will NOT submit to having those rights taken away now or ever. Either by cowardly individuals afraid of the terrorist-boogieman or by power hungry politicians who exploit that fear.
There.
There’s got to be more to this story. I’m sure that they wouldn’t arrest him for just the T-shirt.
Also, they’re just mall security guards. I’m sure that Barney Fife has met his match with these guys.
edit: After reading Rando’s post I see that was the case. We got all excited about nothing.
Don’t you guy gets tired of jumping at the powerbait media manipulators throw into the pond?
This was a set-up by a lawyer to get exactly the kind of response it got.
several quotes from:
U.S. National - AP
Man Arrested for Wearing Peace T-Shirt
Wed Mar 5, 6:15 AM ET
“‘I said, `All right then, arrest me if you have to,’” Downs said. “So that’s what they did. They put the handcuffs on and took me away.”
Downs pleaded innocent to the charges Monday night. The New York Civil Liberties Union said it would help with his case if asked.
“Monday’s arrest came less than three months after about 20 peace activists wearing similar T-shirts were told to leave by mall security and police. There were no arrests.”
That was the part of the CNN story that was edited away from Chris’s link though i read it yesterday when the story broke. CNN eliminated that annoying truth to fulfill their agenda. That’s part of the reason their TV ratings are in the toilet. Sensible people are sick of it and you should be too.
They didn’t get arrested the first time because they weren’t prepared to milk it. This guy came back to do that.
Ya gotta back off jumping at stuff like this. You are just being manipulated to be outraged at red herrings.
(edited) I had second thought on my choice of words, sorry if I was offensive.
Very good point. Jens comment had no place whatsoever here.
~Larry
I don’t know enough about the law, but I would suggest that
the fact that a mall is private property won’t help the mall
in this case. They can’t kick you out for any reason
at all–e.g. for being black or for wearing suspenders
or for talking to your wife about politics.
They will have to make a case that this fellow
was leafleating, soliciting, or some other activity
that is routinely prohibited in malls.
I hope this fellow collects
a couple of million. Probably the police made a dumb
decision, as they often do. Almost certainly the
charges willl be dropped quickly. Nothing new,
not alarming. Civil liberties are always
under attack and police are often
silly–it isn’t a matter of ‘what’s the
world coming to’'–it’s been there for millenia.
The cry ‘Oh my, this is a dictatorship!’
empowers the silllies, disempowers us.
Did anybody really think you would
never have to defend your civil rights? Best
After taking a peek at that Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 bill, as a born-n-bred American, I don’t think either of those options are too far-fetched. Scary times we live in…
It sounds very strange to me, that is seems to be alright if someone who buys a T-shirt with a John Lennon song quote “Give peace a chance” gets asked in the same mall he bought it to take it either off or gets thrown out? And as the Reuter reports say, it happened not only to one buyer. Pretty double moral, first taking the profit in the sales (even it is from a rent paying shop in a big center) but wearing it is NOT permitted?
And NO, Jens is not a jerk in putting out such a question, it may not be in the right context in this thread to ask it. But he and many others inside and outside the US are worried about the many more serious changes happening regarding freedom of speech and freedom of personal rights by the US legislative. There are certainly many rights cut down in the last year or so and you possibly know more about the effect in personal life than I could as I am not living in your country.
edited because I left out the NOT which is essential and for typos
Shall we cool this thread? It’s framed in a provocative way,
it’s hard ot know what really happened, it’s unclear
what this event has to do with the government…
Too murky to do much more than bash around.
We’re much better when we know what we’re
talking about. Yes, of course we should take
a good look at anti-terrorism legislation.
Best to all
Yeah, I’ve often wondered how people in those countries were feeling and thinking during those last few years before the first World War. I empathize with them a great deal.
I think a large problem is that the generality of the populace does not understand that freedom of speech, like other basic freedoms, come with responsibilities. That freedom of speech means that the other guy, who disagrees with you, also has the right to free speech. Free speech also doesn’t mean that you can say anything you like wherever and whenever you like. It could be argued, therefore, that the man with the t-shirt is not being restricted as to wearing the shirt but only as to where he can wear it. I am no expert on constitutional law but I do know that this is not a simple subject and that newspapers rarely present a complete and unbiased report of events. Don’t believe everything you read in the newspapers.
Mike
Jim,
A mall is private property, so they can kick out (almost) anyone for (almost) any reason. There have been a few restrictions cut out of this absolute freedom, but this sort of “hey look at me and get it on camera so I can file a lawsuit and get my picture on TV” stuff has not been the subject of these exceptions.
Another point, people like to shout “You’re violating my First Amendment rights!”, but it shold be remembered that the Constitution (and the accompanying amendments to it) only apply to the federal government. Of course these can be read on other entities (such as states and corporations, etc.) if these entities are representing the federal government or are in some way associated with the federal government. It is of course more complicated than this, but the above is generally true.
I still think that the US is an amazingly free country. It would be interesting (and no, I am not trying to stir things up) to see how the freedoms in the US compare to other western countries, like Germany, France, England etc. Are there restrictions in any of these countries that do not exist in others? Has there really been that many restrictions imposed in the US? If so, how does the US now compare with these other countries. (If anyone decides to respond, I think factual responses [such as “In country xxx, it is illegal to yyy”] as opposed to “I think Germany sucks” etc. would be best). I wish I were more knowledgeable on these subjects, but am not (yet).
All the best,
John Mac
It goes against some people’s inclinations on either side of the political spectrum but it just makes the case for moderation to me. I get exasperated by histrionic responses to such things but we are so over-stimulated these days by electronic and print stuff, that the producers of such things become more desparate to elicit such responses. You just have to hold your feet on the ground and ask, what am I really being told here? Whose agenda is being served? THIS INCLUDES the current Administration, of course, for those who think I am only flying with one right wing.
Just remember the Tawana Bradley hoax for example. Or the PR firm that the Kuwaitis hired to juice up their occupation stories. So many people are massaging and working angles for whatever is current.
We have been in a state of war with Iraq pretty much for the last 10 years. Clinton fired over 400 cruise missiles in 1998. But along with the stories above, everyone seems to forget everything!! And go nuts about what they read in today’s paper!!!
One of my favorite chronic headline grabbers has been the Center for Science in the Public Interest. For a while there, they were coming out with monthly dire pronouncements about food. One month was how bad Chinese Food is for ya, for example, while another month was the evils of pizza. After a while, the chorus becomes so predictable and frequent that you tune it out. Then they shout even louder. Crank up the commercials, include new phones ringing to get your attention, jiggle the camera angle sideways, anything to get your attention.
The worst part is, that if you do tune out, in some way, they have won. You will be less likely to go out and vote, volunteer or otherwise feel that you are a PART of our system, rather than a passive observer. I think that “road rage” is a symptom of what I call “passive-aggressive social disorder”. In other words, the Patriot Act may really mess up our lives, but people sit on the couch and eat their chips while its reported yet get really worked up about getting cut off on the freeway. Pick yer battles!!!
I did a lot of neighborhood council work and people hiding behind their mini-blinds were the hardest nuts to crack, even when spray-can vandals, car thieves and rapacious public agencies were screwing up our neighborhood. We were not rabid leftists or abortion-clinic bombers either. We were actually pretty moderate and did not fit in the mold of extremists which actually confused the newspapers, victim groups and other local poverty pimps agendas. It was hard to initiate change for us, but we prevailed. I wish the same moderation for all.
To the distress of trial lawyers, Bush is pushing for a limit on pain and suffering awards in tort laws. This is a tangible, debatable real story and might include that guy with his dang t-shirt. Jim Stone wants him to get a few million for pulling his little act. I don’t.
If I put it in the most idealistic terms, I can ascribe t-shirt man’s actions to coming up with yet another ‘diverse’ way to protest the war effort. Could be, or maybe he just wants a few million. The whole thing was certainly staged that way, OR so it seems.
It’s depressing because of course, everyone has an agenda. The myth of objective journalism is just that. Look at the earliest newspapers in colonial days and you realize that our journalistic tradition in the US began with sensationalism and continues to be that way. I worked as a newspaper reporter after receiving a scholarship and I was trained to aspire to objectivity. But the uniformity of message these days in our open and 'free" market has been proven over and over again. One memo from the Demo party campaign headquarters asked operatives to question Bush’s “gravitas” for example. Next thing you know, all the talking heads were using that word. Limbaugh has a hilarious set of recorded soundbites of everybody from Cokie Roberts to Paul Begala, all questioning Bush’s gravitas. Another maddening example, is the “Elite Republican Guard” or “Somali Warlords.” Who dreamed that up? How Elite were they anyway?
I see a lot of very lazy reporting these days complete with showbiz zingers, like Dan Rather getting the Saddam interpreter to use a fake Arab accent to dramatize Saddam’s words. You can launch into a discourse on the evils of corporate press ownership, but the alternative, trusting the government to give you correct information has its problems too.
In cruder terms, keep your B.S. filter on. that’s what I said before and say again.
This was pretty stupid on the part of mall management, but it’s hard for me to understand how this inspired a poll about whether the US government is crazy or not. The US government was not involved in this stupidity in any way.
The owners/managers of a privately-owned mall made the decision that the wearing of that shirt on the premises might be disruptive to their business. They have the right to do that.
They asked the guy to remove the shirt or leave. They have the right to do that. It’s a privately owned business, not public property.
He refused to comply with the property owner’s conditions for the use of the property so he was arrested (by a local police department, not an agency of the US government, BTW). That’s perfectly proper.
So, where again did the US government have anything to do with this?
I think all you squishy-headed liberals need to go back to school, let’s see, I think they taught all this stuff in about eighth or ninth grade when I was a youngster… :roll:
Oh, and lest I forget. The article mentions the caption on the shirt, which I think we’d all agree is pretty innocuous. However, there is no mention of what graphics were on the shirt, and I notice that there quite oddly is no picture of the shirt on picture-happy but liberal CNN.com. Gosh, maybe there is more to this story than we’re being told, eh? I’ve seen a few anti-war shirts with very offensive graphics that I wouldn’t want worn in my food court either!
John