OT: Support our troops....

Whistle
1

I saw this on another board I frequent, and thought it would have general appeal, whether one is for or against the war. I never realized how poorly paid some of these men and women are.

"Blessings!

******************************** With the war now at hand, there is much talk of “supporting our troops.” Those of us opposed to this war are routinely accused of not being supportive of our men and women in the armed forces. Sadly, I don’t think there are many who actually do support them. By this I don’t mean just waiving a flag or paying lip service to our “fight for freedom.” I mean actual SUPPORT for those who put their lives on the line, who obey orders to fight and defend regardless of their own personal beliefs or situations, those who at this very minute are doing just that.

As the wife of a service member, I am appalled each time I see a woman paying for her groceries with food stamps at the commissary. Did you know that over 12,000 armed service men and women are receiving food stamps? And this is only a small fraction of those qualified. Most junior enlisted with children, and some senior, qualify for WIC (Women, Infants, and Children) to receive such items as milk, formula, tuna, and carrots. These are hard working people, working well over 40 hours a week (most work a 10-12 hour day). These are not lazy people nor are they without a job or education. They are out there defending our country. It is disgraceful that we pay them so little they must rely on government assistance to feed their children.

Forty-five percent of those in the Army make less than $20,000 a year (46% in the Marine Corps, 26% in the Navy, and 18% in the Air Force). Of these, 111,600 are soldiers with families; 6,515 are single parents. How do these parents make ends meet? Many work part-time jobs after duty. My heart breaks every time I order a pizza and it is delivered by an E-5 that works with my husband (for those of you unfamiliar an E-5 is a Sergeant, a Non Commissioned Officer — middle management for you business types). He delivers pizzas so he can send his kids to Catholic school since he has been ordered by the military to live in a state with the worst public schools in the nation. And he’s lucky that his job and work schedule afford him the opportunity to make some extra cash on the side.

I will not even touch the current military housing situation in this missive. If I were to delve into the horrendous housing — housing that is considered unsuitable to be given to the homeless in some circumstances — this would get quite lengthy and I’m certain I would lose your attention and interest. Let me just say, that people defending our country shouldn’t have to routinely have their children tested for lead poisoning (yes, this includes my daughter, especially after finding her munching lead-based paint chips several months back). It is disgraceful and we all should be ashamed.

So what can you, personally, do support our troops regardless of where you stand on the war issue? Well, first you can write and/or call your Congressman. The issue of military poverty needs to be addressed by those who control the purse strings. But there are other, more immediate things you can do.

If you live near a military installation, donate to a local food bank. Many military families rely on these donations to help them out at the end of the month. Don’t forget they need other non-food items as well. Toilet paper, DIAPERS!, formula, powdered milk. Also, with the spring holidays being around the corner (Easter and Passover, primarily), you could contact your local base or reserve installation and find out if there is a family (or single soldier with no local family), who would like to have dinner with you and yours.

You can also donate money to the Army Emergency Relief fund (http://www.aerhq.org). Look under AER Campaign for where to send your tax-deductible check. This fund provides emergency money to those that qualify for such things as housing, food, education, even funeral expenses. With service members being called away, many families will be struggling without that part time job income. Also, reservists, who are normally paid much higher salaries at their civilian jobs, are being called up and sent overseas. Their military pay is far less than usual. Their family still needs to pay the mortgage, but the money may not be there while they are out fighting this war. The AER is good for this.

The Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) also has some programs. Go to http://www.vfw.org and look at their Military Assistance Program (MAP). They have an Adopt a Unit program that sends goodies and the like to service members as well as offers support to the families left behind. As usual, these programs can only reach as many people as donated dollars provide.

The VFW also runs a separate program called Operation Uplink (http://www.operationuplink.org). This is a wonderful program that offers free phone cards to men and women in our armed services, keeping them in touch with loved ones at home. I cannot tell you how important those phone calls are. They are a lifeline for families waiting in worry and they provide so much comfort to our military personnel. I’m quite certain there is a man out there right now who hasn’t the money to call home and hear his wife’s voice. And a woman who had to leave her small children when called to service that would love to hear her daughter giggle. Please, do donate to this program.

In essence, this is a challenge to all of you out there wishing to support the troops. Put your money where your mouth is. Be patriotic. Support the troops. Don’t waste your time and energy pointing fingers at those of us who do not support the war. You don’t know our level of patriotism nor our actual support for our troops. Hell, as long as there is one service member out there willing to fight and die for our country while living at, below, are just barely above the poverty line, none of us are real patriots, none of us are truly supporting the troops.

So give. Give till it hurts. I challenge you, especially those of you who support the war. It is much easier to support something if there is no personal sacrifice involved. And this is all about personal sacrifice. If you think you should give $20, double it and then make a $40 donation to each of the programs I mentioned. Go without that case of beer, the night out at the movies, the manicure, that cute pair of “gotta have ‘em” shoes. Give a 100 bucks and take a lunch to work instead of eating McCrap. It’ll do both your heart and soul some good.

Please pass this along and maybe we’ll see more people actually supporting the troops instead of just blowing hot air about it.

Love and Aloha, Heather "



Peace,

Robin

2

Yeah, it’s very sad. And the familes of the reservists and guardsmen being called up now are hurting too - their usual jobs usually pay much more and their families often don’t qualify for the military assistance programs mentioned in the post. Fortunately my brother who’s in the National Guard has not yet been activated but he has in the past and it was a struggle for his family when he was gone. And that was only for a couple of months! This time around many have been called up for a year, possibly more.

Beth

3

40%of the North Dakota guard force has been called up. This is the highest ratio of all the states. Some are wondering why. I think it’s just cause our guys are that damn good at what they do.

4

Unfortunately public opinion is so brainwashed by the administration that you can’t say “I’m against the war but I support the troops” without getting an O’Reilly Factor ass-chewing. Bush has polarized things so that if you are against the war than you support Saddam Hussein and other infantile bravado.
I think this war is even more stupid and contrived than its predecessor. At least the first one began because of an invasion. And it pains me more to think of some of the hardest working people in the States suffering because of all of this.
This administration began on a fluke and a gross manipulation of the defenders of our rights, the courts. Since then civil liberties have taken an ugly turn. In defending our freedom we have been asked to give a lot of it away, mostly our free speech.
I still support our troops and hope they face as little hardship as possible but I can’t help but question who they are really defending. Are they sent to war to defend our freedom or to defend the administration’s power?
Peace to all,
Aaron

5

I deeply love my country and have studied its history from that context.

One of the things that brings a lump to my throat is that we have ALWAYS treated our military poorly from the very beginning. We need them so, we pay homage, salute the flag, cry at funerals etc, but in the end, we reject them like a jilted suitor when the fighting is over.

The GI bill after WWII was pretty much our best reward as far as I can tell, but our Rev War soldiers for example, never received full pay or they were granted land they could not afford to take possession of. Most of the Virginia Military Tract of southwest Ohio was settled by NJ and Penn people, as much of it was purchased by NJ speculators from the soldiers who were supposed to take claim of it. I don’t know if a single Virginian ever went there.

Philosophically, in my opinion, this treatment goes back to the distrust of empires and military dictatorships that some of the Founding Fathers feared. Jefferson was always anxious and suspicious in his writings about large armies and navies, while Adams believed in having a strong Navy and bristling defensive capabilities. He was reviled and distrusted as a crypto-monarchist for this and other reasons. Jefferson was made a hypocrite in the early years of his Presidency by declaring war on the Barbary pirates, as he needed both a stronger navy (than the limited coastal patrol capacity that he advocated before) and he had to exercise the kind of executive power he had formerly opposed to execute the war. BTW, the Louisiana purchase also went against his previous beliefs in executive power and debt as well but it was a pretty good deal after all.

I am sure others will refine and correct my points, but when I read about the thread subject, Agent Orange victims, Gulf War syndrome etc., I know that nothing surprises me when it comes to denying vets the attention or perhaps veneration that some feel they deserve.

Its a conundrum to me about our system. I don’t think we want to live in a highly militaristic culture and that very distaste is an inheritance that may have in turn resulted in our governmental system surviving our Revolution and Civil War, unlike other countries. I also marvel that Napoleon surfaced so soon after the French Revolution. From throwing off the patriarch to getting an Emperor in a dozen years…Not casting stones here but wondering how it happened but that the US survived its turmoils without a similar fate.[/i]

6

Robin
It make you wonder how the CEO of this country justify there multi million dollar salaries when they see these young people doing their duty to their country.
As a veteran I am aware of the lip service paid by politicians and many citizens to honor our young brave men and women who serve with honor and distinction. I have been appalled at the greed in our capital to spend the money on pork projects rather than giving our service people a living wage. Both sides of the political Isle have stood in the way of giving our military a living wage.
If we can afford to spend 200 billion on a war we can certainly afford to give these people a living wage. We should be ashamed to have members of our military on food stamps. It is our duty as citizens to make sure that this does not happen in the future.
This is one of those cost that some like to categorize as “Big Government” well I don’t have a problem paying my fair share to make sure that those risking their lives at least have a living wage.

7

My Nephew called Sunday. He’s a Lance Corporal in the United States Marine Corps. He’s Being moved into position propbably for the push into Baghdad. He called to say he might not be calling again.

We got a call from the Army the other day too. My little sister is a Sergeant, she works in an army hospital. She is deployed in Kuwait by the Iraqi border. They called to say that she was OK even though there was some trouble near her position.

They don’t care about politics. They’re busy worring about people with white flags who still shoot you.

But I do.
Because I can’t be there, I have to resist the sort that weakened our deplomacy so badly by saying We won’t enforce the resolutions, no matter how they are violated and for how long, that we were forced to invade. A unified political front against Saddam would have backed him down and choosing a real Chief Inspector and not a U.N. appologist would have helped too. Hanse wouldn’t have filed a damning report if he saw Saddam Brewing a batch himself.

Tell me, what freedom of speech have you lost? What freedoms have you lost? If you’ve lost them (Try to have a rally in Iraq and hold up a sign saying “Saddam is Hitler” and see what it’s like to really loose your voice when they rip out your tongue) If you’ve really lost them, who’s to blame? Bush did not fly planes into the twin towers. He is doing what is neccessary to try to protect us. What would you like him to do? nothing? then, when we get hit again, you can say"BUSH KNEW!" he should have done something!

If I remember correctly Gore was the first to go to the courts.
It is easy to spew emotion and slogans.

Think.

Share with us all how you would resist an enemy who uses everything we hold dear against us. Enemies who care less for their own people than we do. Enemies who know we will spare no expense, risk more American lives than are neccessary, to keep from destroying their cities and harming their civilians.

Don’t give me that “If we restrict our freedoms, they win” crap, if we fear, they win.

How could you think Bush is doing this for political advantage? His father had a 90+% approval rating after the first Gulf War right before the election and he still lost.

The only reason many protestors havn’t turned against the troops is the war hasn’t gone on long enough. Enough colateral damage and they’ll be screaming baby killer and spitting on them just like they did in the Viet Nam Conflict. Militarily, we won that war. by every account we bested the enemy in the field. The only enemy to defeat the U.S. Military in modern times is the left wing protestor. That is why I get worked up about this stuff.

I tried not to make this personal, or insulting.

When we are at war, politics stops at the water’s edge. Those young people over there aren’t able to compartmentalize the difference between support for what they are DOING and them personally. If you think this war is unjust and my Marine kills someone who is trying to kill him, are you calling him a murderer?

I’m capable of respecting your positions, but you’ll have to earn it. Explain them.

If I see one more protestor yelling “No blood for oil” or some other stupid thing, I’m going to pull an Elvis and shoot my TV. It would have been cheaper to just ignore Saddam’s crimes and sign contracts with him like Cina, France, Germany and Russia did. Oops, isn’t that who was standing against us in pushing serious relolutions? my bad.

Aaron

Oh, and please don’t just call me a moron over and over like Azalin did, I put alot of thought and time into my post and I would feel cheated if that is the best you can come up with.

8

You just proved my point. Thank you for the O’Reilly Factor ass-chewing. I appreciate that you put a lot of thought and heart into your words but that’s really the best way I can respond. I just made some rhetorical statements. I say more below.
Cheers,
Aaron

9

An option is to write to your congresspeople
asking them to sponsor or support legislation
raising the salaries of military personnel.
It’s hard to believe there won’t be a great
public appreciation; we’re a democracy–
this is the sort of thing we can do something
about. Better to light a candle than to
curse the darkness, or the government.
We’re ultimately responsible for what
the military is paid.

If I may make a more general comment,
what I’ve noticed is that most presidents/
politicians get some things right and some
things wrong–more wrong than right, usually.
I think Bush has got some things right–the
war, finally–but some things wrong–civil
liberites. Nixon got much wrong, but
opened the door to better relations with
China. Clinton was a despicable fellow,
who brought discredit on his
office, and who also must deserve some credit
for the strong economy.

This deep hatred we have of Bush, or
the Dems or the Republicans, it doesn’t seem
realistic. All of these people are opportunists,
or they wouldn’t be there. Principled
people wouldn’t be there. I see them as
containers of good and bad things, they’re
politicians, wheeler-dealers. That’s how
a democracy is supposed to work.
For me it’s like they’re automobiles.
They work, they don’t work, but
I don’t take it so personally.

Bush is supposed to be a moron
who is involved in a demonic conspiracy
in the middle east. Well, it’s hard
for morons to conspire demonically.
I figure these people are indeed trying to
protect us in their clumsy and oafish way–
why not? Most people want badly
to be protected; that’s how you stay
in office. They’re reaching for too much
power domestically (Patriot II) for exactly
the same reason–not because of the
demonic conspiracy that they’re supposed
to be too stupid to devise.

We’re dealing with Iraq first, not Palestine,
because they’re afraid to deal with
Palestine–cause that’s politically
dangerous and may cost them the
next election. But Iraq actually does
need to be dealt with, so we’re not
too terribly off track, just bass ackwards.

I’ve noticed that politicians, because
they’re opportunists and wheeler-dealers,
are often immensely creative–Nixon’s
going to China, for instance. And that
people who seem pretty dull can suddenly
have flashes of insight, and see what nobody
else does. Or suddenly act on deep principle
and demonstrate extrardinary moral
courage before lapsing back into
moral squalor.

So I try to avoid getting into a situation
where I’m convinced in advance that
everything so and so does is gonna suck,
no matter how much I wish so and so
wasn’t in office.

It’s a crazy world. Good comes of evil;
evil of good. Bad people do great things;
good people screw things up horribly. I think people who
get really upset about these people think
it’s supposed to make more sense
than it ever can.

Finally, when politicians and presidents
give reasons for doing
something that might well motivate
a rational person to do it, I figure those reasons probably
have something do with what they’re
doing. Best

10

Aaron,

Just want to let you know that I agree with you 100%. I am sure that there will be people who are very upset at your post, but I think it was very thoughtful and well written. I pray that God will protect your family members and all our troops overseas.

I read an article recently - written by a rabbi and and a monsignor - explaining why they support with the war with Iraq, on a spiritual basis. Here is an excerpt from that column:

The next thing we know to be true about war with Iraq, from a spiritual standpoint, is that the need to free the Iraqi people from tyranny and oppression supersedes even America’s need to be free from terrorism. While many people question the danger Saddam Hussein poses to the United States and our allies, he’s clearly a crushing danger to his own people.

We take wisdom, as always, from the biblical texts. In the Book of Exodus (3:7-8), we learn that the motivation of God’s redemptive act of liberation was not the threat that the Pharaoh of Egypt posed to other nations, but the threat he posed to the people of his own country. God called Moses to act as liberator after hearing the cries of the slaves in Egypt. It was those cries of oppression that provoked God’s liberation.

We are moved to support war with Iraq far more by the cries of the Iraqi people, who’ve been gassed, tortured, raped and murdered by Saddam Hussein, than by the pundits and planners, generals and gadflies who order other people’s children into war.

Some would say there are many oppressed people toiling under a hundred Pharaohs around the world and that American cannot lead an exodus for them all. This is politically true but spiritually irrelevant. As long as we have power and will, we must be the strong hand and the outstretched arm for all in need. And if we can’t use our power to free them all today, then let us resolve to free them tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow.

This does a very good job of summing up my feelings on the war.

Beth

11

Jim, you made a lot of good points. Beth, thanks for the article though I found the message a little zealous and sacrosanct. It implies that we have more power than we really do (though we do have an impressive amount of it).
To the other Aaron, again, my comments were just rhetoric. I’m not evading you. I understand your rhetoric. I agree that a regime change is desperately needed in Iraq. Despotism is never a good thing. But I also feel war is avoidable. Do I know how to avoid it? I’m not so foolish to suggest that I do.
Bush says that we are going to war to protect Americans and the rest of the world from the menace of Hussein as well as to free the Iraqi people from a corrupt and cruel dictatorship. Those are all honorable reasons but I have not been convinced that Hussein is such an immediate menace to America and the World that military action is needed. If the whole gist of it had been to free the Iraqi people, I would back him whole-heartedly. Maybe Bush really does hold to those causes and the whole controversy is a press backfire caused by the liberal media. I honestly would not be surprised.
I don’t believe we gave diplomacy a serious try, however. We appealed to the UN for the sake of politics but we did so with guns in our hands so naturally a lot of people had misgivings about our intentions. So when France and Germany try to avoid military action we start calling them conspirators with Iraq.
All of these anti-American’s aren’t anti-American. They are against the activities of our government , be it Bush, Clinton, or the other Bush. People from other countries feel our government is bossy, meddling, arrogant, and greedy. I take that with a grain of salt but there is truth to those statements. Our foreign policies are such as that we protect human rights and democracy but just as much to protect American economic interests.
I’m not saying Bush and his administration are evil and corrupt. I am saying that they are not always right and when they aren’t we need to speak up, not just hush it all up because in theory they are just protecting our freedom. They are public servants. They work for us. They work for our military. Not the other way around.
All the best.
Aaron

12

Aaron (Bagfed), my thoughts and prayers are with your nephew and your sister–may they return home safely, and soon! My heart goes out to all of the military personnel and their families…

All the best,
Andrea

13

Concerning the excerpt from the rabbi and the
monsignor, I don’t think we should have invaded
South Africa to end apartheid or that Great Britain
should have invaded us in 1830 to free the slaves.
Short of genocide, the doctrine that countries have
a right (not to mention a responsibility!)
to invade other sovereign states
if the people are oppressed is dangerous
and mistaken, in my opinion. Imagine the world-wide
conflagration that
would follow! Also recall that this was the pretext
that Germany gave for invading Czecholslavakia.

The quotation from Exodus does not support
the doctrine the letter writers drew, I think.
The right of Jewish slaves to defend themselves from
oppression in Egypt establishes only a right
of the Iraqi people to rise up against Saddam;
it does not establish a right of neighboring
countries to invade Egypt to free the slaves.
Moses went to the assistance of his
countrymen (and women).


Indeed, the fundamental principle that has informed
Christian ‘Just War’ doctrine has been that
a sovereign can attack another sovereign
only in self-defense. I’m glad the Iraqi’s
are being liberated from tyranny, but I beleive
that’s insufficient to make invading Iraq a just war.
It’s no accident
that the administration has sought to
justify the war principally on grounds of self defense. Best

14

But all other things being equal, I’d say it’s far more likely for good people to do good, and for evil people to do evil. I will stick with that belief until it’s disproved.

While I don’t want to see anybody in the war getting killed - whether American/British soldiers or Iraqi soldiers/civilians - I’d be much more likely to support the Iraqi civilians than any of the “coalition” soldiers (“coalition” written in quotes since I don’t find the armies of two nations plus the Syldavian mobile hospital to be much of a coalition).

The Americans (and in principle I am talking every single soldier here) have made a choice to go there and engage in war, and as far as I am concerned, taking responsibility for your own actions applies here (and saying “I was just following orders” went out of fashion about 60 years ago). In contrast, the Iraqis are having their cities bombed, their infrastructure destroyed, and their citizens killed through no fault of their own.

Sorry for not having more sympathy for your soldiers’ (economic) plight, but I see plenty of other people in the world more deserving of it.

(Note: I assume that American soldiers, whether on active duty or reservists, are in essence volunteers. If indeed Americans are being drafted and sent to war against their wishes, they have my full sympathy as well).

15

‘The next thing we know to be true about war with Iraq, from a spiritual standpoint, is that the need to free the Iraqi people from tyranny and oppression supersedes even America’s need to be free from terrorism. While many people question the danger Saddam Hussein poses to the United States and our allies, he’s clearly a crushing danger to his own people.’

Jens, what do you say to that? Perhaps you know that
people (e.g. Salmon Rushdie, others in this
thread, the quotation) are trying to justify the war on grounds of
compassion for the Iraqis. Iraqis who can speak
freely about these things are jubilant; people inside the country are giving our troops
‘thumbs up’ signs. You can’t liberate people under
these circumstances without waging war,
anymore than the Nazi occupiers could be
driven from France without killing innocent
French. Saddam has accounted for
nearly a million deaths of his own
countrymen. I don’t think compassion
for Iraqis justifies the invasion, but I do
think that if we are to be ruled by compassion,
we would have invaded long ago. Why not?

You say you are supporting Iraqi civilians. How?

16

The Americans (and in principle I am talking every single soldier here) have made a choice to go there and engage in war, and as far as I am concerned, taking responsibility for your own actions applies here (and saying “I was just following orders” went out of fashion about 60 years ago). In contrast, the Iraqis are having their cities bombed, their infrastructure destroyed, and their citizens killed through no fault of their own.

Herr Jens Hoppe meinen lieber freund. You really havent got a clue have you. :boggle:

A soldiers duty is to do as he is told, shit rolls down hill as they say…the Army get told what to do by the Govenment, the Army go and complete tasks set by their govenment to the best of their ability.

A person joins the Army to serve their country, once in the Army orders are followed, following orders and discipline are the foundations to which every fighting force is built upon.

A Soldier is not able to choose his battles

I am sure that many of the soldiers fighting in Iraq have opinions about the morality of the war. However a soldiers opinions are seconded to carrying out their duty, not only for their country but also their unit and more importantly their brothers in arms.

“mine is not to reason why only but to do and die”

I am speaking from experience Jens, I have served in many theatres of conflict for over 6 years, Iam now out of the Army but obviously still on the reserve list and have been called to go to iraq in April.

Dont blame the soldiers, they are doing their duty as soldiers, like i said soldiers are not able to pick their battles, they simply follow orders.

17

Dont blame the soldiers, they are doing their duty as soldiers, like i said soldiers are not able to pick their battles, they simply follow orders.

Like I said above, that doesn’t wash with me. You might find the “just following orders” excuse acceptable, I don’t.

And I still don’t have a clue why you keep addressing me in German. Do you have a clue, or is it just an attempt to ‘nazify’ someone who disagrees with you?

18

I believe that international law is plainly with
Jens on this one. If you are ordered to commit
atrociities, you have a moral and legal obligation
not to comply. Speaking personally, I
nearly went to prison during Vietnam for
refusing to serve, but the draft board
decided that I was insane. Best

19

Jim, you wrote this above:

Short of genocide, the doctrine that countries have
a right (not to mention a responsibility!)
to invade other sovereign states
if the people are oppressed is dangerous
and mistaken, in my opinion. Imagine the world-wide
conflagration that
would follow! Also recall that this was the pretext
that Germany gave for invading Czecholslavakia.

and I actually agree completely. Yes, I note you write “short of genocide”, but no one in their right mind can accuse the Iraqi government of doing that these days.

As for the Iraqis being overjoyed at being liberated, I could only hope it was so, but it doesn’t seem to at the moment, eg.

“Marines losing the battle for hearts and minds”, James Meek outside Nassiriya Tuesday March 25, 2003 The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,921393,00.html

“Exiles head home to fight ‘invaders’” Tuesday March 25, 2003 The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,921389,00.html

If the Iraqis are so happy about being liberated, why are they shooting at the Americans (not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely puzzled)?

Jens

20

Jim: I have stayed away from posting in these threads for many reasons, but- While I agree with you in general, my feeling is that when they say you have an obligation not to commit atrocities, I would doubt they meant that every time a soldier or sailor is ordered into battle, they have the right to say- “hey, I don’t think I want to fight against the xxxx, (insert the name of your favorite antagonist here), so I’m just going to say that I’ll exercise my “obligation” not to comply.”

While this might be a great thing theoretically, it just can’t be the way a military organization can work. At some point you need your combatants to let their training kick into gear. While discussion is great, there is a time and place for it, and the heat of battle isn’t it.

Don’t get me wrong here. I’m against the atrocities that are committed in the name of war, and feel that those folks must be brought to certain justice, but this has to be tempered with common sense about how this principle of not complying is actually put into use.

I served twenty years in the U.S. Navy. Anybody who dosen’t think that most soldiers and sailors don’t think about the consequences of what they are doing is way off base, but military folks also know that there is a very limited set of circumstances when they shouldn’t comply with a superior officer’s direction.

If I misunderstand your take here, I apologize. As a total aside, I look forward to your posts on virtually every topic. While I may not agree with all you say, I find your posts well-reasoned and think that you have a very gentle way of making your point.


Although I did spend twenty years in the Navy, I’m not one who thinks that military might makes right. I’m actually pretty much a liberal- trying being a career military person and a liberal democrat- I love my country. I consider myself very partiotic but at the same time recognize that we do a lot of things wrong. I don’t think we had any business in Vietnam and while I think Hussein is a horrific and evil guy that probably should be removed, I don’t agree with how we have gone about it, and I think about all of the other horrific and evil world leaders that we don’t give a damn about.

All the Best, Tom