OT: History Channel Kennedy Documentary

Yeah… you Jerry and Walden say all this in good humour,
but no-one mentioned who was at M.M.'s home before midnight when she rectally ingested a half-pound of various barbiturals?

Btw, I’m shocked at the idea of a democrat, and democrat’s brother, administering supposed tories.

Well, sic transit gloria mundi, as I say every day on various issues. :smiley:

Also, it may be the only good thing about cantspirationz: seems they may backlash on you. Gimme a couple more such backlashes like Dallas, and I might start and Believe in Grace. For in Democracy, it became hard to believe.

Dead serious, and I weigh my words :sunglasses:

As a matter of fact, it is well known that the opposite happens—e.g., someone shot in the head is more likely to jerk toward the shooter rather than away.

Again, simple physics, and lets talk about melons rather than people: wrap a honeydew melon in a half-inch of fiberglass tape and then shoot the thing with a rifle. On impact, does the melon jump back, or towards you? The bullet itself goes right in and out, so its momentum is not really imparted to the melon—but when it comes out the other end, the melon will eject a spray that actually jets the thing forward.

This has been confirmed experimentally, both with melons and cadavers; and these results were actually well known back when Oliver Stone made his JFK movie, with Kevin Costner repeatedly chanting “back, and to the left” — as if saying this enough times will make the perfectly logical explanation vanish.

Caj

Amazing scientific evidence! Too bad the news didn’t spread fast enough: if the FBI knew of it, they would have saved themselves the time and hassle to tamper with that 8mm movie… :laughing:

Er… what about the magic bullet? Optical illusion? Mass hallucination? Whatever induced it, I want some: power drug, fer sure!

[quote="Caj As a matter of fact, it is well known that the opposite happens—e.g., someone shot in the head is more likely to jerk toward the shooter rather than away. . .

. . .Again, simple physics, and lets talk about melons rather than people: . . .

. . .This has been confirmed experimentally, both with melons and cadavers; Caj[/quote]

Someone shot in the head might jerk, but the direction is unpredictable. Nerves and muscle react to the specific stimuli of a particular event, ot particular damage. Your statement is false, becaue there is no “likely”, predicatable reaction to a shot to the head. The laws of physics apply equally to nerve and muscle fiber, as they do to physical force and reaction imposed by impact.

The use of cadavers is much more germane to studying the physcial damage affecting a bullet. I am unaware of any studies in which a cadaver was used to demonstrate, or attempt to duplicate, the physical reaction of a live human being.

I have a video of the melon test you site. The melons don’t always move, but in some of the tests, they roll off the back of the plank upon impact.

This science is useful in a defined scope. It turns to junk science when one set of test conditions is imposed on a dissimilar model. The tactic was initially, predominantly, used in the JFK case to prove conspiracy. But recently some critics are utilizing similar methodology as “evidence” to prove a lone nut. Both sides of this debate appear selective in the questions they ask. When considered in it’s entirety, the evidence is inconclusive. But the fact that LBJ went to his grave believing Cuba was involved, and in consideration of his connections to information in real time, it’s a very significant insight. John Connally never bought into the single bullet theory. We never heard from Mrs. Kennedy. Nellie Connally’s notes are about interesting aspects of the event, her feelings, etc., but she never focuses on the fact that she and the Governor disagreed on the single bullet.

The immediate, documented, observations of those who observed JFK’s body in Dallas are particularly important. Kennedy’s Press Secretary, Malcolm Kilduf appears in a famous photograph in Dallas, immediately after the assassination, in which he is pointing to his right, front, temple demonstrating where the president was hit. He was informing the press of what the doctors in Dallas observed, and told him. The Dallas doctors, in real time, considered the throat wound an entry wound, and described it as such. These are important facts that have not been refuted.

It’s interesting that many documentaries concluding “lone nut” have a particular focus on Lee Harvey Oswald’s “smirk”. He appears rather blank-faced to my observation, but I respect that those editors are seeing something I don’t. The wink and smile of Congressman Al Thomas, to LBJ (who is standing beside Jackie), aboard air force one, immediately following LBJ’s swearing in, oddly isn’t mentioned when facial expression becomes ‘evidence.’ It’s noteworthy if only to demonstrate the incorrectness of such a gesture.

Here’s an interesting piece:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/11/22/conspiracy/index.html

I appreciate the “media” this time when writing about the “media” calls the “media” the “establishment media”, a refreshing change from when the “media” calls the “media” the “liberal media”.

My favorite theory was the one in which a secret service agent in the car behind JFK pulled out his rifle upon hearing the first shot and accidentally shot the president in Zapruder frame 313. LHO not acting alone AND no conspiracy…

Yup, paid $6.95 for that book.

Approaching this from the factual side, I would surmise that Gov Connally was NOT involved in the conspiracy. He, most probably, did not signal to Oswald to fire away. (One theory had Oswald more unhappy with Connally than with Kennedy.)

The most odd book and explanation held that the Secret Service shot him (since no one would expect it from them). How someone filled a book with that I do not know.

I looked through the window in Dealey Plaza shortly after the museum opened in 1989 - I was there in 1991. It was an easy shot and one man acting alone would have no problem with it.

I haven’t tried to delve into this stuff, but I’ve wondered about various things over the years.

With the coverage that’s come out these last few days, I’ve seen that it would have been easy for Oswald to have acted alone in the actual shooting. The eightysomething guy on the ABC special demonstrating how easy it is to get off three shots in less than eight seconds with that kind of rifle, together with actual photos of Oswald’s military service marksmanship scores (47 and 48 points out of fifty from 200 yards rapidfire; the Kennedy shots were from 80 yards) convinced me of that. However, I’m not convinced that Oswald acted alone in other respects. There are just too many possible motives and too many suggestive connections to dismiss the possibilities.

Best wishes,
Jerry

I would agree with the ‘loose’ conspiracy. Apparentlty, the ‘partying’ group of Secret Service were assigned to the trip. Everyone knew that they would be out late drinking until 3-4am.

One notable exception was the Secret Service agent who help Jackie back into the vehicle. He had not been on assignment but, based on the assignment of the other personnel and the trickiness of Texas and its feelings, he had a bad feeling and still went with the President.

Similar to Pearl Harbor and 9-11, the signs and events were there but it probably is near impossible to derail the actual event.

Come on!

Texas Schoolbook Depository…

Librarians…

Do I have to spell it out?

It doesn’t take a genius to find the obvious connection!

I didn’t say there was a likely, predictable reaction—I said that one was more likely than another. I certainly didn’t mean (and didn’t say) that some effect will always happen, or almost always happen, or usually happen.

The “jet effect” does exist, and is significant enough to dispel the idea that a backwards head jerk implies a shooter from the front. It doesn’t rule out a different gun angle; but the jerk is still consistent with a shot from the back.

The use of cadavers is much more germane to studying the physcial damage affecting a bullet. I am unaware of any studies in which a cadaver was used to demonstrate, or attempt to duplicate, the physical reaction of a live human being.

IIRC there were indeed experiments on cadavers as well as melons. Tomorrow I can go to the university library and confirm this, or perhaps discover that I was mistaken.

Of course, many people have many things to say about this research and its ultimate implication, if any. Indeed, finding this kind of JFK stuff on the Internet is a real pain, because any web search results in 30,000 web pages where people just talk about the research indirectly, typically to dispute it.

Caj

Yeah. Conspiracy or not, it bothers me to see people refer to Oswald as just “some loser with a cheap gun” — e.g., “Do we really believe that some loser with a cheap gun could actually fire off three shots all the way from bla bla bla?” In the last few days I’ve seen as much said in a few opinion columns and even news articles.

Caj

Here’s a current story about Klein of Klein’s Sporting Goods in Chicago where Oswald bought the rifle through mail order.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-rifle16.html

The rifle was surplus from the Italian Army and was known as the "humanitarian rifle’ since it was not too accurate. It was used for 50 years, though, and was effective in the hands of a marksman (Oswald was a Marine marksman).

Oswald did it, with three shots, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

~Larry

Sorry Caj, not trying to put words in your mouth, but help me on this; If “more likely than another” does not infer some pattern,or something predictable, what is the relevance? How is that useful to the discussion of the fatal head shot?

In my opinion, you’re right on the money with that thought Caj. Besides the events in Dallas, LHO was absolutely masterful at setting personal goals and attaining them. Those who desire to characterize him as a person less than highly intelligent must be unaware of the details of his life. The documentaries that conclude he did this by himself appear predisposed to characterize him as a “nut.”

Well, that so-called “jet effect” does not need to happen all the time, or most of the time, or even a lot of the time, in order to be relevant. It only needs to be likely enough, enough that a backwards head jerk is not unusual for a shot from behind.

Even if we can’t reliably predict the reaction to a head shot, we do know that some things are more likely to happen than others, and that some outcomes are likely enough that no mystery is implied when we observe them.

Response to paragrah 1: If there’s no statistical pattern, then all you are concluding is, “it could have happened either way.”

Response to paragraph 2: See conclusion from paragraph one. “more likely?”, “likely enough?” those statements include quantifiable comparatives. What are they being compared to?

Seriously trying to follow the logic here. Don’t bail on me.

I don’t know what you mean by “statistical pattern.” Are you just referring to the probability distribution?

The first phrase does indeed imply a comparison to some other event, but the second doesn’t. To merely say that an event is “likely enough” just means that its probability is at least some value—that’s an absolute statement, rather than a comparison to any other event.

Seriously trying to follow the logic here. Don’t bail on me.

I’ve been unclear. I’m saying: a backwards head jerk is not an unusual reaction to a shot from behind. Thus, it does not cast doubt on a shot from behind.

See, “likely enough” is just my probabilistic way of saying “not unusual.”

Caj

I think I am aware of the details of LHO’s life and other than the fact that he taught himself Russian, I cannot think of any aspect of his life that suggest that he mastered much of anything. On the contrary, I think he had some serious “issues”.

He had trouble in grade school, was often a truant, dropped out of HS, tried to lie about his age to get into the Marines. court-martialled 2Xs, tried to commit suicide when the Russians would not extend his visa, a wife beater, the “Hunter of Fascists” who tried to shoot General Walker and failed, (and got bawled out by his wife when he got home for trying such a stunt).
At best he was an unskilled factory worker, often fired or “released”, tried to defect to Cuba and was rejected, was separated from his wife and 2 children, failed at reconciliation the night before the assassination, on and on…

“The son of an insurance salesman whose early death left a far mean streak of independence brought on by neglect.” LHO