On tonguing and the Irish Flute

Irish Flute
1

Hi,

I’ve been playing the tin whistle for almost three years and recently (7 months ago) I took on Boehm flute classes at a local music school which is primarily oriented at modern styles (blues, jazz, rock…). When my teacher learned that I was into ITM he brought a score of the Star Of Munster which we have been practising. Since he’s mainly a jazz performer, I was taught to articulate every first note of a beat if not indicated otherwise. It’s fine for me, since what we were working on was articulation, but I wanted to know if this is in fact how irish music is played on the irish flute. I have a Tipple flute at home, and now that I can get a sound out of it, I want to play the songs that I already know on the whistle so, do I play them exactly the same (mouth blows and fingers articulate) or do I have to take something else into account? Since I know this is going to be suggested I don’t have access to any Irish flute teacher that I know of around where I leave and, believe me, I’ve looked.

Thank you very much in advance.

2

Here is my take. I resisted and finally got a teacher. Best thing that I ever did. Here is the rub. I have been taking for about 8 months. I am working with the whistle still for learning the tune and articulation and just not having to worry about the flute. On the flute, I work on scales and some tunes.

I would say that the flute is not strickly a tonguing. I would think glottals or different method(someone will come along and give the correct method.

Most important to me has been learning the flute that you have. It will take some time to get use to it. And, finally learn how to learn. And, read what Hammy says about the slowest part. Great book by the way.

That is my two cents as a novice.

Be well.

Rob Robison

3

I’ve heard many conflicting things about tonguing in playing ITM on the flute. I think the confusion arises both because there are many different styles of playing ITM flute, and because players are bad at describing what they are doing. Most of the advice I got, even in flute tutorial books, wasn’t very useful.

I would recommend getting Conal O Grada’s flute tutor. He relies heavily on glottal stops, rather than tonguing, and stresses listening to good players and understanding what they are doing. After that, get some CDs of ITM music that prominently feature flute (the Wooden Flute Obsession disks are ideal), choose a few tracks you like, and copy them note for note until you understand what they are doing. Software like “The Amazing Slower Downer” makes this much easier. You can get it for Mac/PC, or for iPad or iPhone. There is also a free program called Audacity, but it is more difficult to use.

4

I’d like to give my two cents as a novice. I was under the impression that tonguing, or the lack thereof, had everything to do with style. That is until I started playing sessions. I have to play the whistle at this point because I’ve playing the flute under a year, but the session leader is not going to slow down for me and I found it much too hard to tongue successive same notes at full speed. I had to learn to do cuts with my fingers. I started on the Boehm flute so tonguing was what I initially learned. I hope to get O’Grada’s book for Christmas, if not afterwards.

I also think that if cuts and taps are not engrained into muscle memory, then rolls and crans will never fully be developed.

If I’m stating the obvious to everyone, please forgive me, but from my self-learned experience, that’s what I observe.

5

Everyone is a little different. Frankly I find tonguing interferes with getting a nice strong ‘blow’. I try to use a glottal or a ‘huff’ at the start of many ‘ornaments’ to get a definite attack. I find anything like the French School of tonguing gets in the way of a nice explosive sound. Sure you can tongue, and there are some very good players who tongue. . .but I think I will never sound very Irish using tonguing.

Bob

6

One thing is for sure; you’ll never sound like an Irish flute player studying with a jazz teacher from sheet music.

If there’s not a teacher or session in your town,there are teachers you can access online, via Skype or and/or there are courses you can take, from Irish teachers even, like on oaim.ie

Good luck,
eric

7

Thank you all for your answers. That was what I was looking for. Also, I wanted to say that I think I’m fairly good on the whistle and have no problems “sounding Irish”, also I have no interest whatsoever on playing Irish music on the Boehm flute, but since I have no Irish flute teachers available it’s a good way to learn common flute techniques and he’s been kind enough to teach them to me trough a traditional piece that he knows I like. I’m familiar with the common ITM ornaments and I play them without problems on the whistle. Thanks again!

8

A humble note.

Yes, generally there is not much use of tongue articulations. It’s not just a matter of “style” but the method of construction of the music itself. Not to say there isn’t a place for it but it’s very spare. Telling a player new to ITM to not tongue forces one to rely on other methods to produce articulation. What ever you call them… cuts, taps, strikes, rolls, glottal stops, pulse… there aren’t just ornaments. They ARE the music.

So. No tongue! For a very long time at least :slight_smile:

Oh, and don’t just “sound irish”. Pick some Flute players you like and listen the hell out of them then try to figure out what they are doing. Your ear is a muscle. Use it and it will get you were you need to go.

Have fun!

9

I love traditional music - especially for the fact that it is more laid back than for example classical music. If you play a mistake in a session - it doesn’t matter, simply play on. If you lose your place whilst playing, it doesn’t matter, simply play on - and so on. Yet – and that’s fair enough, I guess – some people are very opinionated and have a more “right” and “wrong” approach towards playing this kind of music: Don’t use notes, only learn by ear, no tonguing on the flute etc. But there is no mathematical “right” and “wrong” in music. If there was, music would sound the same every time you hear it. That’s not even the case for classical music. But for some people it seems so. I find that trying to impose a strict set of “right” and “wrongs” on this sort of music is so conflicting or contradictory towards the very essence of it.

Anyway, that’s just me, but I think “you have to ask yourself one question”: What is your ambition with playing? Do you want an ITM flute playing phd or do you simply want to enjoy yourself whilst playing with friends?

If it’s the latter – then tounge all you want, if you ask me. It’s all about having fun. There’s nothing wrong in wanting to learn some of the “official” techniques (rolling, cranning or whatever) don’t get me wrong – but do so, when/if you want to. Don’t start off by holding yourself back trying to do everything “right”. It’s all about having fun!

10

It’s true–there are many right ways to play Irish traditional music. But there are also wrong ways. In the case of tonguing, it’s not objectively wrong, but the resulting sound or phrasing could be–or not.

It’s less about the means than the end: if it sounds right, it is. But–just as in learning anything new–getting it right is a lengthy (and rewarding) road to travel.

11

In Irish flute I see tonguing a little bit like I see vibrato; it doesn’t matter how much you put in until it becomes noticeable and starts sounding like something else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf5V4LnwZsc

12

I’m not sure this is a question for much philosophical musing. There is a tradition of Irish flute playing, a fully-formed style; it’s not something we have to conjure from thin air, regardless of how geographically remote we might be from the epicenter of the music.

Rather than trying to develop one’s own eclectic approach to interpreting the tunes, it’s always better to listen to established players who already “speak the language”. If tonguing (or vibrato, or whatever) is the matter at hand, cue up a recording of Matt Molloy, Kevin Crawford, or whoever stands as your own personal avatar of Irish flute playing. Listen…is there much tonguing? It should be obvious, present or not. Some players or regional styles might employ it to a greater or lesser degree.

My own take regarding tonguing is that it really isn’t the right thing to do for most trad playing. In particular, I believe that beginners should avoid it altogether, especially those coming from either a whistle or a silver flute background. Tonguing is a crutch many beginners lean on to avoid learning to play a conical-bore flute properly, with the sort of flexible embouchure required to get the best tone up and down the instrument. I’m speaking more specifically of making intervallic jumps cleanly with no break, and I think you know what I’m talking about!

Tunes that jump between octaves, which may well be most Irish tunes, present a particular problem to the player who hasn’t got their blow right, and the easiest thing to do is tongue the high note. This runs counter to the sweet, flowing style that most of us would identify as typical Irish playing (in the Republic, anyway…), and it en’t how Matt does it.

How Matt does do it, thankfully, is a matter of record, or records. I really think the thing to do is to listen carefully to what the best trad players do, and emulate that. Once you’re an accomplished player in the style, you can make informed choices about what to put in, what to leave out, what needs emphasis, and what ought to be concealed. In the meantime, no sense trying to re-invent the wheel from component parts.


Rob

13

Good man Rob.

14

I third that.
And would add to Rob’s observation about octave and wide interval jumps that one aspect of learning to play an open-holed flute well, as for whistle, is to get one’s fingering changes very clean and perfectly co-ordinated with the rhythm and the intended note-length-values. If you tongue, that cleans up or masks sloppy fingering. At an ultimate level, get it right and you can get those poppy-sounding but still legato runs etc. which we all admire utilising the chiffiness of the instruments.

Sure tonguing classical style also requires perfect co-ordination of tongue stroke to timing and finger change, but at beginner-intermediate levels of playing it can “let you off” a bit with the crispness and accuracy of fingering. That goes whether or not you are using a lot of finger-articulation/ornamentation. So, as others have, I would normally advise beginners and developers on both whistle and flute playing ITM to learn to play almost without tonguing (or glottalling, for that matter) until they have first achieved fluency and precision with their fingering and can play very cleanly in a fully legato fashion. Then tonguing and glottalling can be introduced for special effect.

15

I would normally advise beginners and developers on both whistle and flute playing ITM to learn to play almost without tonguing

I think whistle is different from flute in this regard. I had a beginner student on whistle and the combination of cuts and tonguing (done at the same time) improved her rhythm and phrasing dramatically.
On the flute I’d completely avoid tonguing at least for the first few years, though I’d recommed some emphasizing (not yet with glottal stops) on those beat notes to get the right accent.

16

Thank you all for your kind replies! You have cleared all my doubts. I will definitely practice without tonguing at home with my Tipple.
Also, I already listen the hell out of Irish music, especially flute, on the train on my way to the university every day.
So, if I got it right the general consensus is: Tonguing should be a tool, not how you play. Learn to play without tonguing and then, if you want, incorporate it as a ornament when suited.
Also I agree with bayswater on his opinion, I play this kind of music for fun, alone and with my friends, but I realise that there are people that take it very seriously and have strong opinions on such things as style, brands and behaviour in general.

Thank you very much.

17

Matt Molloy was at one of the Willie Clancy weeks in the 1980s, and was invited to play a few tunes and answer any questions from the flute students. Someone asked him what he did with his tongue when playing. His answer was “I keep it out of the way”.

18

Well, I’m not totaly agree with that, not part of the “most of us”… Even if Matt Molloy was my first entry to flute playing in ITM… Today, I think he’s not the atomic clock.
What about John McKenna, Conal O Grada, Seamus Tansey, Michael Clarkson, Harry Bradley, etc ?
Do you think they have/had a “sweet” style ? Without attacks in their playing ? Always a “sweet” sound ?
Their style is not typically Irish ?
It’s not tonguing, it’s glottal stop, for most of them, but it’s attacks.
On the other side, about pedagogy, I agree, it’s better to learn first entirely legato !

19

I’d like to put forth an example for the OP of someone using their tongue while playing a ITM tune in their flute demo. I think flute playing is fine, but for me it doesn’t have what I think of as a traditional sound. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGQF8eL2_3s.

As been mention above, there are great examples of ITM flute playing on YouTube, most of the greats are there. This is one I came upon that is ITM flute playing at its best, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjLcfnY8-gY


There is a recent thread on glottal stops and diaphragmatic pulses that might help. https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/throat-pulsing-whats-going-on/84268/1

20

Thank you, very helpful information. And I think I get the point, the tonguing clip doesn’t sound right to me. I’m going to practice legato and then try using the diaphragm when I would use my tongue and see how it goes.