No Irish music at Irish festivals anymore

Poststructural Pub
1

How is it that nowadays if you go to a so-called ‘Irish’ festival anywhere in the US there seems to be very few groups playing Irish traditional/folk music.
It seems to be very average rock bands with the odd tin whistle and maybe a mandolin singing songs about going to mass drunk.
Then they try and impressively fail to play a reel, leaving out half of the notes.

Look at the line up for the milwaukee irish fest. There’s 70+ acts and less than 1/3 are traditional/folk and thats being generous.

Whats the story. Is it a money thing or do people believe that any rockband can put on green hats, put an Irish cliche in their band title and away you go.

Any suggestions out there?

Tommy

2

I don’t get it, myself. It is a business venture, and the whole thing is about drawing the crowd for $$$$$$$$$'s sake, and I believe the producers schedule this stuff out of fear for their pockets, as if they’ve decided the public really doesn’t want the real thing no matter what the festival’s called. But that’s just my opinion.

FWIW, this year’s MN Irish Festival reportedly saw greater-than-usual interest in the more trad stuff (music, crafts, and demonstrations), and the Fuschia Band was enthusiastically received. Could be the fairgoers’re getting fed up with the usual pap fed to them.

3

The problem is that most Americans think that sort of thing is ITM.

4

That perception is hardly unique to America.

–James

5

Fair enough, but St. Paul and Milwaukee residents know better, in the main. I say let the idle curious get the real deal. If they don’t like it, stuff 'em. And I mean that in the nicest way, of course. :wink:

6

No suggestion, just commiseration. I hear ya, brother. Look no further than the initial promoters of the event. If they know what Trad is, you might get Trad. Otherwise, they will book WHO THEY ARE TOLD are part of the overall “celtic” thing… I mean, what do they know?

When it comes to authenticity, you will find that even very accomplished musicians are not above a little fraud to fill out the ol’ gig calendar. For example, there is a local duo, who performs under four different duo names. One is historical (they purport to do Calif. historical music), one is old-timey/contradance, one is celtic and one is bluegrass. In terms of what they actually do, they are probably closest to bluegrass. I have heard them play what they call Irish, and its actually contradance-style-Americana renditions of Irish tunes. So you end up with Cowboy Jig, Ashokan Farewell and mebbe TamLin. Irish ornamention? Ha!

At any rate, whether its an “Irish” festival, bluegrass, old-timey, whatever, they are trying to get the gig and I’m sure they make a convincing case because they are such busy performers. I think that booking agents will also deliver who they have cheap, not who they should get. “Sure, they play Irish, sure!, you betcha, just like the Chieftains!”

PS rant: This is what bugs me the most, when it comes to Irish music in America. People who play straight-up contradance versions of reels and “ironed-out” jigs, then call it Irish music AND don’t know any better, or worse DON’T CARE to know better. Actually, they usually call it “celtic,” hoping to rope in the Scots crowd as well.

7

The MN promoters know plenty, trust me. I know some of those guys, and they know from trad. Word has it that the situation’s the same in Milwaukee. That’s why I don’t get it.

8

Huh…must be money then, or local tastes. I know that a lot of people here don’t like Trad because its too treble heavy. They want a thumpin’ bass line and some nice harmony. They are more likely to go for Scots-style…

9

Yes, but do they know to trad?

10

How loaded a question. I’ll leave that alone for now, if you don’t mind.

11

You know, personally, I don’t have a problem with it. It’s not “Milwaukee Traditional Irish Music Fest”. It’s “Milwaukee Irish Fest”.

Milwaukee Irish Fest, (I can’t speak for other festivals as I haven’t been to them) presents a wide variety of Irish entertainment. Not only music but plays, poetry readings, lectures, children’s entertainment, and sporting events. They do have a lot of traditional music - but there is Irish/Celtic music that’s not “traditional” - is it any less Irish? Why shouldn’t the more modern, “untraditional” music be featured as well? With 8 or so stages to choose from, there’s enough to please everyone from Irish rock bands to sean-nos singers. I say the more the merrier.

12

I think the general public doesn’t like traditional music as well as music with a more rock-like sound (drums and guitars). The restaurant/bar called Kieran’s in Minn. cancelled Paddy O’Brien for good and kept the Celtic rock or whatever it is. When we went to hear Paddy O’Brien in the back room there, the audience for him was always tiny—like just us, or maybe a couple other tables. The audience for the loud whanging in the front room was big, noisy, drunk, whatever. I’m not sure how much listening the audience in the front room does, but they prefer that music apparently or they would have gone to the back room. I believe he was cancelled because not enough people came.

Someone here once said that Irish music without guitar and drum sounded “thin”----people are apparently so used to rock music that music doesn’t sound right if it doesn’t have guitar and drums. I think this applies to all sorts of traditional music, not just Irish. Country and Western certainly had guitar, but it didn’t used to sound like rock. Then they started calling it “country-rock” and now we have “country” which sounds like rock and isn’t anything like what I would have called country music which was not the same as country and western.

We went to that Irish thing in Minneapolis a couple of years ago when we were just passing through. We were just there on one day so maybe other days were better, but I didn’t find one single thing of interest. The problem wasn’t so much with the music that was there because I could see people were enjoying it, but there was nothing that wasn’t with drums and guitars. I love Minneapolis and maybe that festival will get better. I’m sure I would have loved the UP extravaganza they had this year!

13

I grudgingly concede, rebel_rn. Very grudgingly. Like, way grudgingly. I agree on the “something for everybody” dynamic. I’d like to see the balance tipped, though. I mean, face it. Pop music is pop music, and it could be from anywhere if you factor out the accent it’s sometimes sung in.

14

Irish Trad is a specific musical genre.

What constitutes ‘Irish’ in other cases?

It’s Irish because the lead singer’s great grandmother once met a woman in New York who knew somebody who had talked to a man who had bumped into someone who had shaken hands with a guy who had an Irish setter as a pet?

Mukade

15

We were with harpmaker at the Dublin (Ohio) Irish fest weekend before last - but we were so busy none of us made it out of the booth to see anything else, except to go back to the rec center to get in some air conditioning before passing out (I think it had to be 110 under that darn tent!).
So I didn’t actually get to hear any of the music, except what was behind us on the “Thunder” stage. At one point someone was singing “9 to 5”, and while Dolly may have Irish roots in her background, I certainly don’t think of THAT as Irish music, no matter what definition you use!

16

The problem is that most Americans think that sort of thing is ITM.

I think most people, where ever they’re from can tell the difference between a rock band line-up and an acoustic line-up even if their not really familiar with the genre.


That perception is hardly unique to America.

Very true, a year or 2 a certain Irish music magazine gave the Corrs ‘Best Trad Award’. You’re not a trad band just cos you play a jig on a whistle. I can play a few guitar solos from a few classic rock songs but I am not a rock musican. To say different would be only insulting to some one who has spent years studying that genre.

The problem is, people will percieve the likes of the Corrs to be Irish traditional music if they are told it is.

A guitarist that I have played with here in St. Louis told me that this Celtic Rock is the way traditional music is going and I should just get over it.
I told him it’s just a different genre and stop telling people your performing trad when your singing Neill Diamond songs.


Look no further than the initial promoters of the event.

This is true in many ways. One of the organisers of an Irish festival in southers Illinios booked Teada without ever hearing them before. He could have booked anyone..

The MN promoters know plenty, trust me. I know some of those guys, and they know from trad. Word has it that the situation’s the same in Milwaukee. That’s why I don’t get it.

I don’t mean to pick on any festival in particular. I just used Milwaukee as an example. And in fairness to the organisers of Milwaukee, the same weekend in Kerry all the hot bands are playing here http://www.theworldfleadh.com/artists.html
A couple of rock bands here too.



You know, personally, I don’t have a problem with it. It’s not “Milwaukee Traditional Irish Music Fest”. It’s “Milwaukee Irish Fest”.

Nor do I, and thats a good point. Very few festivals are specifically traditional. I enjoy a lot of these so called celtic rock bands I’ve recorded with a few too.
I say ‘so called’ because some will point that they are just rocks bands that may do some Irish themed songs.
Some will tell you that they are 100% celtic while born in Utah and there’s not been a pure bred celt to be found in europe for over 1000 years.



They do have a lot of traditional music - but there is Irish/Celtic music that’s not “traditional” - is it any less Irish? Why shouldn’t the more modern, “untraditional” music be featured as well? With 8 or so stages to choose from, there’s enough to please everyone from Irish rock bands to sean-nos singers. I say the more the merrier.

I cannot disagree in any way. There used to be great festivals in Lisdoonvarna years ago where bands like Thin Lizzy and Rory Gallagher would share the stage with the likes of Planxty and the Cheiftans.
Diversity is what makes the world go round.

But maybe I should ask the question are there more rock bands than traditional bands playing at Irish festivals.

A problem I can see is that the more popular of these rock bands are expensive and some command $10,000 to $20,000. Fair play to them but it doesn’t leave much for the trad bands who will usually get paid less.

Then trad band will quickly lose interest and not bother go to these festivals at all. Then you have people in the audience listening to a rock band at an irish fest thinking, “hhmmm, so this is Irish music. Sounds like the usual stuff on the radio…”

You could end up with an Irish Rock Fest which would still make for a very fun weekend but I think the Irish festivals, especially outside of Ireland should have almost half of it’s stages set aside for irish tradtional and folk music.

People should be exposed to trad and folk so they can make their own minds up.

And decent quality stuff too. Not the lads who own instruments for a few months and form a band and can’t play a shagging note and STILL get gigs… Who wants to start that thread… Gowan I dare you…
:smiling_imp:

Tommy[/quote]

17

I haven’t encountered this sort of problem in the UK.

Most of our Festivals are not labelled, such as “Irish” or “English”, they’re just Festivals, centered around music and concerts, but with other things going on.

The band line up will be published, so people can look for their favourites and try oput a few new names. It’s impossible to see everything and be everywhere, but there’s plenty of choice.

The live music options will cover the range from a solo performer in front of twenty or so listeners, to the “big names” playing to hundreds.

There may be “Irish” bands there, but it’s not an “Irish” Festival, so nobody can complain if they don’t think what they’re hearing is Irish.

Where there are specific “Irish” Festivals, they’ll be organised and run by ex-pat communities, so they’ll be as genuine as they can be, for something not in Ireland.

18

Hmmm, any reason why yer pickin on Utah? I may not be 100% Welsh meself, but I can still give more than an old fashioned Welsh drive-by knickertwisting…(it’s been a while since I’ve pulled that one out o’ the bag! Feels kinda good… :stuck_out_tongue: )

19

I understood that, Tom. It’s like you can’t swing a cat without hitting the phenomenon. Still, I thought Milwaukee was a darned good example considering how vibrant the trad scene is there.

20

Is that Seltic or Keltic? :stuck_out_tongue: