Here's what I think of irish musicians...

Still having a good time in Ireland, and I keep on meeting Chris. I’m trying to get him to France, for the multi-celtic festival in Brittany.

The music has a total different sens than what I’m used to in here. The best musicians just DON’T know the name of the tunes, and they don’t give a darn about sheet music. They just KNOW how to play the tunes, and they don’t ask themselves senseless questions like “what key is it played in?”. I’ve met an irish fiddler who’s been playing for more than 10 years, and she knows a whole bunch of tunes that she learned from other people, and from tapes. Her sister plays whistle like crazy and she’s never seen something else than a generation whistle and a susato…

Now, let’s talk about Susatos. This evil whistle is invading Ireland! Because it is cheap, and quite loud, irish whistlers are quite fond of this instrument of doom. The fiddler was all happy because she finally found a tunable Susato. Oh gosh!

Beside the fact that Susato is around, I think that the spirit of music in here is quite simple: just play! Stop talking about theory, about whistle colors, types, makers, and just play.

I was in a pub in Galway and a girl just took a Feadog from her pocket and started playing “The Salamanca Reel”, just to show something to her friend. She played the most amazing version I’ve ever heard.

This is what I like in Ireland. They don’t talk about music, they just LIVE it. It’s inside them.

Oh well, that’s it, wish Chris and I good luck! :slight_smile:

\

Azalin

Well, I can certainly understand and respect your opinion. However, you’ve peaked my curiosity… If you respect and enjoy the playing of the whistle for whistles sake, and dislike the technical and theoretical discussions, then why are you posting on a board that is being used to discuss whistles?

In a way, I can relate to what you’re saying. Many moons ago, I was a clarinet/flute performance major. But the competition and 18 hour practice days completely killed any joy I had in playing. And I felt pretty much the way you do.

However…

Do you have any idea how boring a whistle discussion board would be without a discussion on whistles? That’s like going to a movie theater and screaming “I don’t like movies! Reading books are the only way to peak your imagination and truly know the story!”

My suggestion is to play, enjoy, and let others enjoy as they want.

-Frank

Acually I’ve never known musicians who do not sit around and talk about instruments. True they do not do it while performing, but when sitting at the tavern on an off night, we would discuss this guitar and that amp and etc etc etc. Of course it may be that we had much more to talk about that there has been in the Irish country. Generations and Clarkes etc were all there was for a long time I’m sure.

I wonder if the lack of interest in other whistles might not be in part attributed to economic and awareness/supply factors. The internet is much more of a presense here and in the more urbanized area.

If Susatos are now starting to catch on, I’m sure other makes will not be far behind.

Blaine

Blaine McArthur wrote:
… I wonder if the lack of interest in other whistles might not be, in part, attributed to economic and awareness/supply factors. The internet is much more of a presense here and in the more urbanized area.

If Susatos are now starting to catch on, I’m sure other makes will not be far behind.

I think Blaine your beginning to touch on a little of the difference. I think market and technological flow, the difference in national character between Americans and Irish (or other nationalities), and the folk process all contribute to the experience of an American visiting Ireland.

In terms of National Character, we Americans are very ‘thing’ oriented. We measure our success as human beings often in terms of things; hense the saying, “Lifes a game and the guy who dies with the most toys wins”.

We seek to establish security for a families through buying a good home in a good neighborhood. In other lands you establish security by spending time with your ‘mates’ or friends.

The result is that some of the best things come from our culture, we take things and refine them, re-invent them, and play with the thing. Invariably improving its function.
As we develop a technology it tends to spread out from urban to suburban to rural. From technologically centered areas to less technological areas. We may make a better whistle, it’s in our national character to strive to do so. On the other hand, its more in the Irish character to take what you have and use it more fully, developing the ever ending ways to enjoy the music. Its a nice exchange over the long run, we get better music, they get better whistles.

It’s also in the irish character to pull the leg of Americans and encourage, to a certain extent, a romantic view irish life that enriches their tourism. So any and all behavior at a pub around visiting Americans is tempered by the need to to see the bed and breakfast next door continues to thrive.

Although national values, character, and technological flow are at work, they’d have no place to go if it weren’t for the folk process. It seems that whenever you come in contact the root of any folk tradition, weather it be cajun, delta blues, irish, appalchian blue grass, or even country-western, the root is always more concerned with enjoying the music. Its a living process that simply enjoys the music as part of its day-to-day living. New instruments come and go depending on weather folks can enjoy them as part of that living. They don’t try to figure out what the music is or what is “the” form. They just play it, listen to it, dance to it, cry to it, celebrate to it, simply as a part of living.

At the root of folk music, it is just a reflection of life; its going to reflect those that live it. If the folk tend towards ‘rugged individualism’ then you going to see that reflected as each member of the band takes a turn at improvising on the melody simular to mountain blue grass. If they tend toward ‘knowing your place and getting along with others’, then that will be more dominant in the music too. Perhaps refected in the harmonies, consistent tempo or some other characteristic of the music. These things are reflected, not as absolutes that we might study; but, as living values that swing back and forth as the folk mature, as their character grows and adapts.

Sitting here at my computer, I the ex-social worker with a degree in sociology see all these facits drawing together to form the Gem that is Irish music reflected in the posts of our friends visiting the emerald isle. However…

Were I instead sitting in a session, I’d say, NNNaaayyy, that’s too complicated. All you need to do is …

\


Enjoy Your Music,

Lee Marsh

[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2001-07-24 17:14 ]

I’m sorry to have to say this but:

As someone who lives and works in Ireland - I find your views a little generalised - and not really based on enough information.

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to temper your comments with phrases like ‘the people I have met so far say..etc’ rather than imply that you are expressing the views of the Irish nation.

You’re obviously excited to be in Ireland (so am I) but there are 4.5 million people here, and I doubt that you’ll meet them all in a short vacation.

Take care

Steve

My major was anthropology. Physical anthropology was my specialty. Fossils and evolution and 10,000 year old bone flutes. But, one of my professors was a cultural anthroplogist; you will never guess where she did her Ph.D research. The Irish pub music scene. Sometmes as she talked she would drift into an academic scholar mode, but at other times she would be as earthy as some of the people and sessions she would describe. We were usally in the rathskellar putting down a few when she shifted into this mode. I wonder if this could also explain some of the Irish attitudes. I have been know to talk some pretty serious s… er, stuff after a few beers.

Blaine

You can live the music and still talk about whistles, makers and stuff. Craftsmen talk about their tools,race car drivers talk about their cars, musicians talk about their instruments. Mary Bergins got expensive whistles, So does Joanie Madden. If you’re enjoying your music, I guess that’s all there is to it. Now if buying whistles distracts your playing, and you really do want to play good…there would probably be a problem there.But then if you enjoy doing just that(collecting whistles)..it’s your money and your time. maybe I should just shut up…

Tots

Azalin,

I hope all our commentary isn’t too discouraging. It sounds like you are having the time of your life and I envy you guys. Enjoy the music and the rest of your trip.

Blaine

Geeze, I forgot how people get offended so easily on this board. First of all, what I’ve expained is something I’ve noticed, from people who have been playing all of their life in pubs and for them, music is a natural thing and they never had to consciously learn.

I’m not in this category, I will always enjoy talking about techniques, keys, whistle brand, and all, for the rest of my life.

It’s OBVIOUS that I base by comments on what I’ve seen so far. I know there are 7 millions people in Ireland & Northern Ireland and that I’ve only met a few. I just don’t really have time to put a safety statement on every sentence since I’m in an internet cafe and it’s quite expensive, so I trust that people will read between the lines.

I still have that feeling about county clare musicians which are born in music, I’ve met maybe 6-7 so far, and they all seem to have the same philosophy about music. But there’s 200 000 more to meet! :slight_smile:


Azalin

Funny that Azalin should have mentioned reading between the lines. He posted that while I was writing this:


A bit of reading between the lines of Azalin’s post.

Azalin is an extremely enthusiastic and motivated whistler. Added to this he has a good ear, bags of talent, loves Irish music and practises all the time. Put all this together and you have the potential for a fine exponent of the Irish-style whistle playing. He has been playing about a year but has made enormous strides. Now it’s time for the pilgrimage to the Holy Land.

In the year that he’s been playing, he has discovered C&F and become a confirmed WhOA sufferer. Being young, unattached and having a well-paid job, he has spent some serious dough on Copelands, Overtons, Silkstones, Weasels, and who knows what else.

A guy like this turns up in Ireland eager to learn and progress. He discovers unknown players sitting in pubs who don’t know the names of tunes and play cheap whistles, but their music blows him away. He gets talking to them, wants to pick their brains, discover the secret of their amazing music. He asks them if they know about Copelands, Silkstones and Sindts. Or they ask him, what’s that funny-looking aluminium thing with the fancy trim that you’re playing? They are amazed. You’ve been playing a year, and you’ve spent how much on whistles? And of course, they laugh.

They may not be laughing at the whistles or the whistle makers, or scorning the attempts of the maker to produce a fine instrument (although they may think their battered cheapie a better instrument for their style of playing). They are most probably laughing at Az for spending all that money!

I’ve seen people with far more whistles and far less talent than Az. I’ve seen a guy with Copelands, Grinters, Abells, and an entire range of Overtons, who would barely qualify as a beginner. This brings me to my point. Someone mentioned Mary Bergin and Joanie Madden playing high-end whistles.

Mary and Joanie are not just top players, they are professionals. Many of us WhoA addicts are not only amateurs, but we don’t play all that well. We’re a bit like middleaged people that decide to take up cycling and immediately buy a $2000 bike and all the shoes and clothing used by professional athletes. They go out looking like they should be in the Tour de France and can barely make it up the first hill. People in jeans and sneakers on beat-up old bikes go whizzing past them, because they have the leg muscles! Similarly, people in Ireland will floor you because they play as well as Mary and Joanie and the only whistle they own is an $8 plastic-top.

I’ve been on this board for long enough to realize that there’s little point in trying to talk people out of buying Grinters, Abells, Copelands and the rest before they can play well, or of trying to persuade them that owning a Copeland will not necessarily help them become good players. But if any of you take your expensive toolkits to Ireland, don’t be surprised if people are amused. Especially after they have asked you to give a solo demonstration of your hardware!

That’s my reading of some of the points raised by Chris and Azalin. I’m just looking forward to hearing Az’s playing when he gets back.

Be happy everyone Steve

Thanks Az for your reports. It is sometimes difficult for people who have not been to Ireland to understand just how different the culture is there from that in North America.Americans are often shocked by the difference in the standard of living over there.
Thanks Stevie for your comments, you make some very good points. And I totally agree with you.
This music has been around in Ireland for centuries…people have grown up with it…players have lived with it since in the womb! The jigs & reels that we in N. America are so excited to learn to play “in the true Irish style”, were originally considered “bog” music or “peasant” music and looked down upon by people with money.Often, musicians couldn’t afford their own fiddle so it was kept behind the bar of the local pub.Even now, many very good Irish musicians don’t have enough money to buy expensive instruments. Americans have done a lot to change attitudes toward Traditional Irish music, and to bring it to the concert stage, but in Ireland it still is something you just do, often down at the pub on a Saturday night. We pay a fortune to see Irish Bands “in concert”. Over there, they often just show up at the local pub for a “few tunes”. So if they are amused at the cost of some of these new “penny” whistles, we shouldn’t be surprised.
So…keep those reports coming Az, I for one was thrilled to hear your experiences, after all You are the one over there seeing all this!! Have a wonderful time, and don’t be afraid to tell us what you see, just because some people might get rubbed the wrong way. Have a great time!
Sue

… AND… If you decide to discard all your “Expensive” whistles and stick with Generations, I can think of some lovely Charities that could benefit from the money…

btw, anyone know what the current wait time on an Abell is? (just out of curiosity.)

There is a beautiful Larrivee guitar hanging on the wall at one of the local guitar shops here. It is not only beautiful to look at, it is THE best sounding guitar I have ever played, and one of the easiest on my fingers. Beats any Martin I’ve ever messed around with. It only costs $2,750.00 I’ll probably never own it.

I will eventually find myself paying maybe $200 or $300 for a whistle because I can afford to pay $200 for a quality instrument - excellent sound and playability, at what is not(for me) a too unreasonable (for me) price.

Irish Trad, O’Carolan and Ceili are not my main gigs. The Low whistle is almost another genre in itself. Spillane’s Sea of Dreams was more new age than Irish Trad. But that is Ok. I like 'em both. Heck, I’m even trying to play some of that Zen meditation stuff on my low whistles - because it is fun and sounds cool.

I find this discussion quite interesting; maybe it should carry on over to a different thread, rather than take away from Chris and Azalin’s experience. Like I said before, I envy them both.

Blaine

Azalin, thank you for the insightful comments based on your experience in Ireland. I appreciate the time you have taken to share them with us.

HAH!!! Oh man how Funny!! This thread immediately turned into exactly what AZ was talking about, totally proved his point the way I see it. Jeeze, that just cracks me up!

AZ and Chris, Glad to hear you’re having such a great time, thanks for the post!!

Loren

On 2001-07-25 14:05, Blaine McArthur wrote:
There is a beautiful Larrivee guitar hanging on the wall at one of the local guitar shops here. It is not only beautiful to look at, it is THE best sounding guitar I have ever played, and one of the easiest on my fingers. Beats any Martin I’ve ever messed around with. It only costs $2,750.00 I’ll probably never own it.

I will eventually find myself paying maybe $200 or $300 for a whistle because I can afford to pay $200 for a quality instrument - excellent sound and playability, at what is not(for me) a too unreasonable (for me) price.

Irish Trad, O’Carolan and Ceili are not my main gigs. The Low whistle is almost another genre in itself. Spillane’s Sea of Dreams was more new age than Irish Trad. But that is Ok. I like 'em both. Heck, I’m even trying to play some of that Zen meditation stuff on my low whistles - because it is fun and sounds cool.

I find this discussion quite interesting; maybe it should carry on over to a different thread, rather than take away from Chris and Azalin’s experience. Like I said before, I envy them both.

Just bought a Laravee Parlor guitar from George Gruhn in Nashville for four hundred bucks! Talk about a bang for your bucks, this is it! Now I have to do with the guitar what I did with the whistle last year, lock myself up for six months and relearn how to play!

The Larrivee Parlor is a fantastic “little” :slight_smile: guitar. Let me know when your fingertips start bleeding. Then I’ll know you’re serious. Of course, as soon as your Tully shows up … Ooops, we aren’t supposed to talk about that are we.

Blaine

I almost hate to jump in here again, but I guess I am a little confused Loren. What was their point?

I guess for some the point that was made that Irish musicians, and Irish whistle players in particular, are somehow inherently purer and better than all us folk who spend time logging onto this list and discussing the instrument we all love. We are, I guess, a bunch of shallow superficial windbags.

This is not a moot point, or about hurt feelings. This is, after all, a forum dedicated to discussion. Chris and Azalin both took the time and expense to communicate with the members of the list. Phrases like “the best musicians” and “they don’t ask themselves (?)senseless questions(?) like “what key is it played in?”.” are not exactly neutral. Maybe it was just exuberance, but it sounded a little bit like pontificating.

They write things like “I think that the spirit of music in here is quite simple: just play! Stop talking about theory, about whistle colors, types, makers, and just play.” and “This is what I like in Ireland. They don’t talk about music, they just LIVE it. It’s inside them”

Is it safe to assume that because many of us talk (and talk and talk) about the music and the whistles, that we don’t play it, that we don’t live it? That it is not inside of us? Several of my whistles and my CD player and a selection of CD’s goes everywhere I go. I take my music serious, and I suspect there are quite a few on the list who have the music inside them as well.

Phil’s response to Chris’ post is so appropriate here. “Everything in life moves on ,so this stick in the mud attitude of the few is thankfully being superceded by the many. Long live the low whistle."

I understand their exuberance, and I repeat once again my envy of their experience. Experiencing a new culture in all its facets, including its own unique approach to music is incredible. Just keep in mind that Ireland is not the United States, it is a unique and different culture. It is not a better one, just a different one.

More than anything, I envy Az’s plans to attend the “multi-celtic festival in Brittany.” This is more where my interests lie. Still, I wonder how well the Afro-Celt Sound System, or Martin Craddick’s Baka Beyond or Capercaillies’s collaboration with the West African Duo Sibeba. would go over in the average rural Irish pub or tavern. All these fall under the rubric of “Celtic”, but are far from traditional.

failte

Blaine

I admit I have no actual knowledge of the Irish, but I would imagine that not all Irish live and breathe the (trad) music. Some, perhaps the youth, would have more affinity towards modern pop or rock music. Some might even find trad stuff “quaint” or “boring” or “passe”. For some, it might have been a big part of their childhood, so that even after they grew out of it, it would still be ingrained in them, and they might still “feel” or “get” it more than others who did not grow up in that culture. For others though, it might not even have been a big thing in their childhood, and it wouldn’t be in their blood.

I don’t doubt that for those who grew up in the same and have been playing that music all their lives, they would probably outplay most of us. But again, some of these continue to play “pure” trad, thereby preserving that heritage, while others innovate and adapt, thereby expanding the borders of that type of music. So what? Both groups are equally important.

If some of the more traditional ones are amazed at how much some of us spend on whistles, and laugh at our “folly”, I wouldn’t be upset by it, since it’s just how they see the world and their music. It’s a different philosophy, and it probably makes sense for their lifestyle. I’m sure some of us feel equally “superior” in considering them so hidebound and bound to tradition that they can’t innovate or see beyond their borders. :slight_smile:

I make these comments from my experience as an ethnic Chinese who is more interested in jazz/pop/rock than Chinese music (what is Chinese music? trad? modern? pop? I know I’ve generalised…but I digress), and who likes the whistle as a fun improvisional instrument not necessarily to be used for Irish music. Nevertheless, I enjoy the stuff on Clips and Snips, and I enjoy this Board tremendously, because I am interested in whistles.

OK, getting off my soapbox now,

tuaz

Azalin. If you’re still in the country and on the East Coast, I’d like to invite you to a session in Drogheda, Co. Louth any Monday night in the Bridgeford Inn from 10PM. I’ve been playing whistles, flutes etc since the age of 4 (28 years ago). We could play a few tunes together. Usual instruments are whistles, banjo, fiddle, box, guitar etc…

Ciaran