What Whistles do the "Real" Irish Play?

Whistle
1

This is a WHISTLE REALITY CHECK question for those of you who have been fortunate enough to have spent a considerable amount of time in Ireland: What whistles do the “real” Irish play, i.e., real Irishmen/persons, in Irish pubs, at Irish sessions, and how to they feel about expensive American whistles?

I was kinda daydreaming about maybe being good enough one day to actually dare to travel to Ireland with a whistle in my pocket, but then realized with a jolt that while we love to talk about our Copelands and our Abells and our Sindts and our {fill in the blank with all the others}, can it be disputed that we Americans have a tendancy to overdo and overengineer everything, (including maybe our whistles).

If you pulled out a Copeland or an Abell at a session in Ireland(even if you played perfectly), would they nod at each other with that knowingly disdainful “Aye, we’ve got another AMERICAN” look and then pull out their untweaked Clarke originals, their Generations and whatever and play perfect, beautiful, pure Irish Music with Cheap Whistles as God Intended?

Mary Bergin, Geraldine Cotter, even Andrea Corr all play inexpensive whistles. OK, J. Madden plays Burkes. But I guess I was wondering…are the REAL Irish as WHOA smitten as we Americans? Is expensive whistle use as common over there as here? Im curious. Also, during a trip to Ireland last year, my mother asked a local shop where to get a good whistle, and she was told quite honestly by the shopkeeper “dont bother with a native whistle…all the good ones are made in the USA”.

OK, this was a long and rambling post, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to the fine craftsmen who make the wonderful whistles that I and all of you covet. But at the risk of sounding sacriligious, I’m wondering if there is a different mindset about whistles and whistling in Ireland than what tends to manifest itself in America and in forums like the Chiffboard. If so, I’d sure like a reality check and have someone in the know to tell me about it.

It doesnt really bother me that that wizened old Irishman in the smoke-filled corner of the pub in Dublin is shaking his head at my Copeland (again, no disrespect intended) and silently saying that I’ve missed the point of the whole thing, that beautiful music can and should be played on a real “tin” whistle, and that its silly to spend time talking about fancy whistle designs when you could simply be making music.

What bothers me is that he may be right.

2

I imagine the average whistler in Ireland is playing a Generation or the like. But perhaps that is so in America too, in reality.

I, for one, play a Clarke, which wasn’t very expensive at all.

quia si confitearis in ore tuo Dominum Iesum et in corde tuo credideris quod Deus illum excitavit ex mortuis salvus eris —Rom. X,9.

[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-05-14 00:28 ]

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This subject has come up a lot, in the expensive v. inexpensive whistle debates and the like. There are people on the board who insist no one in Ireland plays anything but Gens or Waltons and such, but there are others who have been to Ireland and seen “real” Irish people playing low D’s and Susatos (I know, still a cheap whistle, but a little more money), as well as others.

I have also heard that Mary Bergin plays Sindts now.

My two cents…

4

An observation, nothing more: Consider where the expensive whistlemakers live; I suspect that will be pretty much proportional with demand.

(Comparing with flutemakers might be interesting too.)

    -Rich
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When I was in a music store in Gort (Co Galway) last month, I asked why there were scores of Waltons and nothing else. The clerk said the teachers of the local school kids require their students to use only Waltons. They feel it’s the best buy for the money. Then at the sessions I watched (I don’t play well enough to join in) the whistlers were playing Feadogs, Waltons and Generations. At one store in Ballyvaughan the clerk said most of the locals in that area played Dixons.

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Peter Laban says mostly Gens, with a few Oaks, are played in sessions. He also allows that some may play others for recordings and such.(Check the archives to confirm. Most of that was from memory.)
Steve Power may have a different view.

Steve

7

Here’s an answer from an Belfastman.
In my opinion, we play whatever makes a noise and is close to being in tune. Don’t get too hung up with technicalities, just go with the flow and play. I’ve seen all sorts of weird and wonderful whistles, although 20 years back it was mostly Gens and Clarkes. Lately, there has been an upsurge in trying different whistles. I myself have Gens, Oaks, Feadog, Clarke - original & sweetone -plus a couple of Susatos. I got my first Generation whistle in 1973 and I’m still trying to get a decent sound out of one. I find most of my problems come from me and not the whistle. If you get a good cheapie it’s to be treasured.

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A lot of the musical instrument distributors I know, say that schools use Generations rather than Waltons, but I’ve seen school kids buy the cheapest whistle they can get, and schools look for bulk discounts, rather than specifying the whistle, some times. That said, they phrases ‘blue top’ and ‘red top’ D whistles, were synonimous with whistle buying in schools for a long time (referring to nickel and brass Generations), I understand.

Whistle teachers and session players buy what they like and as the range is increasing, their choices are changing. Some buy Susato, because it’s loud, some buy O’Briain (one teacher I know has at least 4 of them), some like Oak, etc, etc. Dixon is getting more popular too. I’ve even seen a busker (local man) on the Cliffs of Moher with an Eb Susato - because it was loud, he told me. Paddy Keenan was playing Grinter and O’Briain Low whistles when I saw him in Limerick last week.

Best wishes,

Steve

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All serious whistleplayers I know play generations, some people own feadogs [Jackie Daly plays those at home, easier to pick up than the accordeon]. A number of people play susatos and are consequently hated by all other musicinas [allthough I have admittedly seen Marion McCarthy do a lovely job on one of them and Kevin Crawford appears to play the Barry set on the CD on one]. One older guy in town owns a wooden one which is thought of as very odd.
It is partly as said above a matter of availability, people are willing to experiment [my Sindt is attracting some attention with one famous accordeonplayer asking the address to order one]but in shops there’s little variety. In Custy’s they have chieftains and susatos and if you look at them they ask you what you would would want with those. A shop in Ballyvaughan was mentioned here recently as having a good selection, I was in there last weekend but nothing there took my fancy [I tried a polymer whistle I did not like much in all they had two ‘unusual’ whistles and a batch of low ones that don’t interest me], they seem to cater more for the tourists than anything else. And that’s about all, not really a great choice. And children in schools as said above, often just get the cheapest available. And to be fair, I played for and with a group of local children recently [their whistle teacher gets a mystery guest every second week for them to listen to]and they all did a fine job on their gens and other cheapers and were not really in need of anything else.

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-05-14 05:51 ]

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Based purely on my observations in the West Cork & Kerry area on a week’s holiday in March, many “professionals” play Susatos. That is, people who are likely to be miked or recorded. Susatos also predominate in the session at the Porterhouse in Covent Garden, London.

In less formal situations, I saw one Walton, and a few old Feadogs used, usually by pipers when they fancied a change. Maybe this is because they were trying a tune they weren’t sure on, and these would be quieter if they strayed from the tune.

I certainly never saw any of the “high end” whistles being played, and it wouldn’t suprise me if an eyebrow was raised and some gentle ribbing ensued.

I also never actually saw a Generation being played, though I saw them for sale in a few dedicated music shops.

In the tourist shops, Waltons and Feadogs predominated, which is only to be expected as they are both cheap and of Irish manufacture, and come in some interesting colours.

I also never saw any whistle other than high or Low D being played, and the low D only in one performance by the group Tuatha, in Killarney.

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Along the same lines, how many people do you normally see in a session in Ireland?

The one session I got to had about 6 people. The smallest I see here in the states is about 10…and that was on a VERY slow day. Typically its more like 15-20. I wouldn’t hear my Feadog over that unless I had a parabolic mirror in front of me.

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On 2002-05-14 00:02, DazedinLA wrote:

Mary Bergin, Geraldine Cotter, even Andrea Corr all play inexpensive whistles. OK, J. Madden plays Burkes.

I believe Joannie plays O’Riordans. And it is painful to see Mary Berging, Geraldin Cotter and that other woman mentioned in the same breath when it comes to whistle playing. :wink:

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On 2002-05-14 10:13, tyghress wrote:
Along the same lines, how many people do you normally see in a session in Ireland?

The one session I got to had about 6 people. The smallest I see here in the states is about 10…and that was on a VERY slow day. Typically its more like 15-20. I wouldn’t hear my Feadog over that unless I had a parabolic mirror in front of me.

The most I ever saw would still be less than a dozen. Half a dozen would be more usual and as few as 3 players sometimes, especially when they’re semi-professional (i.e. being paid to be there), if you can count that as a session.

Usually a scraper or two, a blower or two, a squeezer (or a squeeze/blower), and a beater or strummer for the beat. A plucker is a bonus. Pretty much more then six players would usually mean a duplication of instruments, and more than one accordian, piper or bodhran is usually too much IMO.

I love the sound of multiple fiddles or flutes, though. I do have the problem that my mandolin is totally drowned in any kind of gathering, which is one reason why I’m tending to play the whistle more these days.

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On 2002-05-14 10:22, Bloomfield wrote:

On 2002-05-14 00:02, DazedinLA wrote:

Mary Bergin, Geraldine Cotter, even Andrea Corr all play inexpensive whistles. OK, J. Madden plays Burkes.

I believe Joannie plays O’Riordans. And it is painful to see Mary Berging, Geraldin Cotter and that other woman mentioned in the same breath when it comes to whistle playing. > :wink:

You know, one of the nice things about being a newbie is that when you mention names of known whistlers, there’s always backstory and opinions and stuff that you dont know about that arise when you lump all the names together. Im still getting familiar with all of the Knowns, and I was only mentioning the onese that came to mind. If there is a real issue with these names in the same sentence, maybe someone will send me a private message and straighten me out.

Yes, oops, Joannie plays O’Riordans. Hey, O’Riordans, Burkes, they’re all the same anyway, right? :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: OK, settle down, now. I said settle down, its only a joke. I said…Don’t you make me stop this car!!!

OK, move along now…nothing to see here.

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Just do a search for Andrea Corr in the backposts. Wait till you have a few hours to deal with it, though. And if you find a thread called “It’s Sickening”, you can ignore the first few pages till it gets goofy. :slight_smile:

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OK, right, its an Andrea Corr issue. I understand…I was wondering if someone had a problem with Joannie, which was confusing for me because I think she’s wonderful. Much as I dread the thought, I may eventually chug my way through the entire Sickening thread…I’ve only seen the first few pages and that was enough for me.

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On 2002-05-14 10:56, DazedinLA wrote:

You know, one of the nice things about being a newbie is that when you mention names of known whistlers, there’s always backstory and opinions and stuff that you dont know about that arise when you lump all the names together. Im still getting familiar with all of the Knowns, and I was only mentioning the onese that came to mind. If there is a real issue with these names in the same sentence, maybe someone will send me a private message and straighten me out.

Yes, oops, Joannie plays O’Riordans. Hey, O’Riordans, Burkes, they’re all the same anyway, right? > :slight_smile: > > :slight_smile: > > :slight_smile: > OK, settle down, now. I said settle down, its only a joke. I said…Don’t you make me stop this car!!!

OK, move along now…nothing to see here.

It’s fun setting the newbies straight, so don’t worry about saying somthing stupid. :slight_smile: Is there a “real issue” with MB, GC & AC in one sentence? Of course there isn’t and I doubt that there are any real issues at all in the wonderful world of whistle playing. But Mary Bergin is the Queen of whistleplaying for Irish Trad, and Geraldine Cotter is a highly respected IrTrad musician & teacher. Andrea Corr is… well, pretty (if you like the starved look). If it weren’t for her siblings, the recording industry, and the hormonal imbalances of pubescent girls, I doubt anybody would have heard of her, and I am certain that nobody would care that she plays whistle, or what kind. (Sorry PATI.) :slight_smile:

PS.: I actually have a “problem” with Joannie Madden, too, although I usually don’t like to risk the flames to say so. Some of the Cherish the Ladies stuff is good, although I don’t listen to it much. I have Song of the Irish Whistle (or something), which I bought after all these raves here on c & f. Apart from being pretty boring overproduced comercial stuff, she doesn’t even show much technical brilliance. It’s all expressive long notes, if you see what I mean. If I want that kind of “celtic” muzak, I’d rather listen to post-Harry’s-Game Clannad. For some reason I also don’t like the Boehm flute for IrTrad. Call me square, call me backward, but there it is. And I don’t care if you can play 3 1/2 octaves perfectly in tune.

Wow! I am not usually so grumpy. :slight_smile: If it helps, I will preemptorily apologize to all Joannie fans. I hear she is a wonderful person and I don’t doubt it. :slight_smile:

/bloomfield

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-05-14 11:35 ]

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On 2002-05-14 10:41, Martin Milner wrote:
[ Half a dozen would be more usual and as few as 3 players sometimes, especially when they’re semi-professional (i.e. being paid to be there), if you can count that as a session.

you may not have realised almost all sessions in pubs you’ll find will have at least one or two musicians paid to be there to attract the punters.

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Andrea Corr may not be in the same league as Mary Bergin as a player, but she’s done her bit as a whistle ambassador, as has Patrick Stewart, albeit inadvertantly.

I’ve got one or two recordings of MB, and she’s playing so far beyond my abilities it’s depressing. But I bet I could get up to AC’s standard in time! And as for Patrick Stewart, I can play anything he can!!

20

From my time in Eire, mostly everyone seems to play waltons or similar (they grow up with them in school). However, when I handed round my Rose blackwood everyone wanted one - it was a revelation to them. I reasoned that the USA and the UK have the large markets and the punters with the pounds as a result, but with a pop. of 3 million the Irish don’t (but will given the chance).

Whether a Walton or a Rose, they played brilliantly of course!